Examining Charts with Tropical and Sidereal Zodaics

[Therese_Hamilton]

[Michael wrote:]
However, we can start any related threads on our own or even a thread to comment on their discussion. If you and other Vedic astrologers want to contact me to create a third Vedic forum, I am totally open to that.

Michael, I like Sam's susggestion, and hope the two of you can come up with a good title for another forum.

[Michael:] "I am also trying to find some sources for Babylonian astrology, and am still waiting to hear about that.

I've been collecting texts on Babylonian astrology for a number of years. The problem is that the material is highly technical and mathematical and ferreted away in difficult-to-come-by professional magazines. I've been able to obtain some good material on-line and also have found a few helpful texts. Just for information below is a list of books I've been able to find. In case you already know about these books, I'm initially not giving all the publication information:

Hunger and Pingree's ASTRAL SCIENCES IN MESOPOTAMIA (Brill, 1999) Very, very technical with many accurate translations from old texts.

Rochberg's BABYLONIAN HOROSCOPES (American Philosophical Society, 1998) (I think she has another small book or two as well.) This book contains translations of most or all of the horoscopes known at the time of writing. This is the source text I used for the short articles on Babylonian planetary positions on my web site. (Along with Pingree.)

Ulla Koch-Westenholz's MESOPOTAMIAN ASTROLOGY (History, tradition, working principles, very technical.)

Michael Baigent's FROM THE OMENS OF BABYLON: ASTROLOGY AND ANCIENT MESOPOTAMIA (Arkana, 1994)

This last book is very readable and filled with gems such as:

"[Astrology] changed from the political, mass-oriented 'mundane' astrology to that in which the individual was important...[This was the result of the Persian Invasion.]...there is also a corresponding relationship between the astrology based upon a natal horoscope and the monotheistic religion--Zoroastrianism." (p. 175) (c. 539 B.C.)
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[Michael:] "My own view about looking into the past, and this is something that Robert Schmidt and I have discussed for a great many years now, is that whatever was true back then (ages ago) is still true today, because that is the definition of truth, something that last or endures..."

[Therese:] I hadn't considered that idea, but I like it--truth endures. I like the quotes from literature (Emerson). Astrology has to be linked to basically everything. We don't exist in an isolated capsule.

[Michael:] "Just as we can search in ancient languages for how astrology works, whatever truth there is in that search is still true today and remains in the mind to be accessed by any of us with the will and patience to do so. We can go within our own mind and discover these same truths."

[Therese:] Like Edgar Cayce's Universal Mind. We all have access to that Mind. I often think that each astrologer is tapping a certain part of that Mind, and is (in a way) actually "channeling" certain precepts and methods for the benefit of everyone else.

[Michael wrote:] "So, please communicate your wishes and needs either here or elsewhere on the forum or to me personally at Michael@erlewine.net. It is my wish to make the ACT dialogs a refuge for real discussion among astrologers."

[Sam wrote:] "Since you suggested another forum, I would be happy to moderate a more open Vedic Astrology Forum if you think that will be of benefit to the ACT community...I recently have been conducting classes with western and vedic astrologers using all zodiacs and systems.. so I see the beauty in all of it - AND I have researched Jyotish quite a lot myself."

[Therese:] Yes, I think we'd like a forum for open discussion of Jyotish and the zodiacs and related issues. (Forgive me if I have something of a block to the word "Vedic." I like "Jyotish" because it's historically more accurate.)

Therese

[Therese_Hamilton]

Hi ROY!!! Long time not hearing from you--so glad to see your name here. I've been on the internet since the early 90s in order to keep my finger on the astrological pulse while living a private and meditative (but much too busy) life in the mountains--I also have a site dedicated to the sidereal zodiac.

I think your very informative and thoughtful post needs a new topic heading as this particular forum is limited in apprach. (I don't want to reply to your post here.) What about it Michael? (As if you didn't already have enough to think about...) Maybe something on the math of the zodiacs. (I've already worked out a sidereal/tropical comparison of U.S. inauguration planets to natal charts, but don't have a place to post it as yet since I discovered that this topic was supposed to be limited.

I mean, Roy, your post is practically a small jounal!

Therese

[Roy_Kirkland]

Hi Therese -

I wouldn't mind contributing comments to posts on such a forum, but it's not the math that interests me, it's the structure of the system - I don't currently believe that there is a reason to use "sign delineations" in the sidereal systems at all - I think everything comes from dignity and relative position - I believe that 99% of sign delineation comes from tropical technique, and, in fact, is based on the declination of the Sun, not the relationship to some point in space. I have neither the time nor the inclination to present my concept other than in a book I'm working on, but I don't bother much with signs other than their role as the houses of the planets when doing Vedic astrology interpretation. In western astrology, there is strong evidence that a good deal of the Hellenistic system was originally sign based, and there is a lot of interpretation regarding them that can be explained easily from the Thema Mundi and the various dignities (Trigons, etc.). In other words, the structure of the universe-model tells the story. You'll probably find more of my posts in the Hellenistic forum, because I do not do a whole lot with the Indian systems these days. Good hearing from you, PEM me if you like - although my "play time" is limited, I have a lot of homework these days - LOL...

[Andrew Foss]

Dear Ernst

Thank you for your interesting post. It is rather impossible to discuss charts without all the chart details if you can please provide them.

Best wishes

Andrew

[Martin de Karoly]

I am interested in discussing which is the better zodiac, either sidereal or tropical, to use in Vedic Astrology. To that aim, I propose the example of a celebrity chart. I chose the chart of the king of France, Louis XVI, who was guillotined during the French Revolution. As per Astrodatabank, he was born on August 23, 1754, in Versailles 48N48 2E08, at 6:26 AM LMT. This is almost correct. In fact, the official record is 6:24, but it was in the true local time, so the Equation of Time of 2m39s must be added. Thus, we get 6:26:39 AM LMT and 6:18:07 AM GMT. I will compare his chart in the sidereal zodiac, with Lahiri ayanamsa minus 23’ with his chart in the tropical zodiac.

His biography in Wikipedia gives a fair idea of his character. Physically, he was strong and healthy. Although Astrodatabank says he was mentally dull, Wikipedia states he was good in his studies as a boy and that later nobody doubted that he was capable of governing France. But he was indecisive and too conservative. He could not make the reforms which were urgently needed at the time. He was shy and reserved. He liked hunting and his particular hobby was working on locks. He enjoyed manual activities. A detail of his biography which does not appear on Wikipedia is that he had some defect in his sex organs. For years, he could not have normal sexual intercourse with his wife, Marie-Antoinette whom he loved and desired. He probably had to have a small operation. He was married on may 16th 1770. His first child was born in December 1778. He became king on the death of his grand-father, on May 10th, 1774. He was arrested on August 10th, 1792 and guillotined on January 21st, 1793 at 10:20 AM LMT.

When comparing the tropical and sidereal charts, it appears that the tropical Ascendant Virgo suits him much better that the sidereal Ascendant Leo. In the Tropical chart, le strongest planet in shadbala is Saturn, which means that the strongest element is air. This explains his interest in manual activities and Virgo, his shyness. In the sidereal chart, the strongest planet in shadbala is the Sun, indicating the Fire element. This should have made a leader of him, but he was not. With Leo Ascendant, he should have liked publicity.

In the tropical chart, Saturn is the lord of 5th in 5th. The 5th house represents power. He became king during VD Saturn/Saturn (VD are calculated in the sidereal zodiac, since Nakshatras are sidereal). But Saturn is debilitated in Navamsa. This clearly shows the loss of power. Also, in the tropical chart, the Moon is debilitated in Rasi, showing his bad relations with the people. In the sidereal chart also, he becomes king during Saturn/Saturn dasa, but Saturn is lord of 6th and 7th in 5th, and is exalted in Navamsa, so the meaning seems rather obscure. As to the Moon which represents the people, he is lord of 12th in 3rd, which results in a raja yoga which should have given him final victory, after a struggle. This is not what happened.

As far as I can see, the tropical chart seems much more appropriate.

[Steve Spellman]

Since the Natal Chart of King Louis XV1 computed in the Sidereal & Tropical Zodiacs, both features a partile (less than one degree) conjunction of Sun-Jupiter in the Royal Sign of Leo, both Zodiacs can be debated as the correct Zodiacs. What is very interesting about this Natal Chart is that the “raja-yoga par excellence of kingship or the like are configurations of Sun and Jupiter.” Seeing this raja-yoga of Sun-Jupiter, particularly in Leo, is a classic example of Royalty. Since the Royal Sign of Leo is rising in the Sidereal Zodiac, one could make an argument the Sidereal is the correct Zodiac but this rising degree of Royal Leo cannot stand alone for deciding the Sidereal Zodiac as the correct Zodiac. Thanks for posting this Chart of a King.

Regards, Steve

[Steve Spellman]

Hi Martin, I just noticed another very interesting piece of delineation pertaining to your post on King Louis XV1. Note the partile square of Moon-Neptune in Louis Natal Chart. The Midpoint of this Moon-Neptune square is 1 deg 6 min. from an exact Midpoint to Natal Mars. Ebertin states from his most excellent book ‘The Combination of Stellar Influences’ with a Midpoint of Moon/Neptune=Mars: “weakened natural powers in relation to sex life.”

Most interesting!

Regards, Steve

[Martin de Karoly]

Hi Steve,

Yes, Leo rising with Jupiter and the Sun suggests royalty, even with Jupiter very much combust. But still, royalty was a cause of great ordeals to him and this explains the placement of the Sun and Jupiter in the 12th house in the tropical vedic chart. I think that whenever a chief of state has his Sun in the 12th, he may live through an ordeal. G.W Bush has his Sun in the 12th and he was in office on the 11th of September 2001.

Thank-you for your very interesting remark about Mars on the Moon-Neptune mid-point. I have the book of Ebertin, which I appreciate. In Vedic, Venus joined by Rahu might explain his sex trouble.

Regards
Martine

[Steve Spellman]

Martin wrote:
Yes, Leo rising with Jupiter and the Sun suggests royalty, even with Jupiter very much combust. But still, royalty was a cause of great ordeals to him and this explains the placement of the Sun and Jupiter in the 12th house in the tropical vedic chart. I think that whenever a chief of state has his Sun in the 12th, he may live through an ordeal. G.W Bush has his Sun in the 12th and he was in office on the 11th of September 2001.

Yes Martin—I totally agree.

Regards, Steve