Examining Charts with Tropical and Sidereal Zodaics

[Michael Erlewine]

Dear and Gentle People,

In the early days of ACT, when we ran tracks all day long at UAC or AFA conventions, a panel might contain seven or eight panelists, not to mention a very active audience, and thus the need for a moderator to keep it down to a gentle roar.

Those panels were often filled with laughter, communication, education, philosophy, etc., but also sometimes tears and anger. The same for the panels at our center here in Big Rapids. When you mixed astrologers like Theodor Landscheidt, Charles Harvey, Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Noel Tyl, Charles Jayne, John Townley, Michel Gauquelin, Lee Lehman, Alois Triendl, and scores of others, it could be a rich mix.

The beauty of ACT, at least back in the 1980s, was not only to share our interests, but to also discover our differences. When we find differences, it can be touchy and we don’t know whether to step forward or backward. For my own two cents, it is enough to expose the differences, let them stand, and move on to another topic.

Things can get a little testy. For example, let’s take this forum. Some of you have written and asked me whether this forum is for tropical Vedic astrology only. The answer is that this is one of two Vedic Forums (and we could create more Vedic forums if you need them), and I imagine those Vedic astrologers visiting here use all kinds of ayanamsas aside from the tropical one, right? So let’s be clear on that.

The forum is about the whole topic of Vedic astrology. Within the forum are individual threads like this one. It is the nature of threads to continue or just run out, in which case we start a new one or move to another thread. This thread seems to have run its course.

As William Blake wrote, “Enough, or Too Much.”

It is good to hear different opinions strongly held. This topic of tropical and sidereal zodiacs is an important one, not only to you Vedic astrologers, but also to the rest of us reading your posts. I, for one, seek to better understand the different views here, and what they are based on. I have learned a lot already from this discussion by Ernst and Therese, and I thank each of them for sharing their views. In fact I would love to see a featured-panelist discussion of this topic similar to the one about to start on “The Astrology Tradition in Retrospect” with Schmidt, Dykes, and Wilhelm.”

Perhaps we could assemble a group of six or so Vedic astrologers and convene such a panel. However, it would take someone reading this to help organize who should be invited to participate.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Hi Michael,

Many thanks for your post which shows consideration for all of us who are following this forum. (I hope there are a number of secret lurkers.) The Vedic-Joytish-Tropical zodiac question hinges firmly on the dating of India's texts. As far as I know, there has been no comprehensive study of the astrological texts by Indian professionals in the field (that is, Indian university scholars who can easily read and compare Sanskrit and perhaps other of India's languages as well.) In the west we have the Project Hindsight, ARHAT, Dykes and other translations we can begin working with. Even Rob Hand has gone back to school for his Ph.D. so he can study original Latin texts to be clear on the translation.

If there is an insistance that the Indian horoscopic texts (not the Vedas) predate Hellenistic astrology without supporting evidence, or that stellar historians such as David Pingree are wrong, then any discussion reaches a dead stop before it even starts.

As ordinary astrologers we aren't qualified in historical fields, but have to rely on the studies of the professionals who understand the historical context of astrology without personal bias.

In thinking about it, I'm not sure how productive the planned panel will be because the three fields are so diverse. As you know, Schmidt is a Hellenistic specialist, Dykes has specialized in Medieval astrology, and Ernst Wilhelm has studied India's primary astrological texts. In other words these are three islands, and perhaps only Dykes has studied the connecting links to some extent since he's been a university professor specializing in ancient and medieval philosophy. However, he probably hasn't done much study, if any, of India's texts.

The only astrologer I know who might connect the links to some extent besides Dykes is Robert Hand. (I may be missing a few astrological names here.) David Pingree has done a great job of connecting historical links, but he's gone from us, and we have only his articles and notes such as those in YAVANAJATAKA.

Since many of these notes are in diverse languages, we need people who can adequately translate those languages! (He wanted fellow scholars to be able to read the original texts.) Pingree has done a huge job of referencing astrological statements across cultures, and was a language superman. His notes are fascinating to read.

It's all too big a bite for day-to-day astologers, so we're left with showing in our work how astrological techniques operate in the horoscope. As we all know, we have a very expansive "Tower of Babel" in that respect. I'm not sure a solution is in the works at this time, and perhaps that's all in the plans of the Gods! Look at the state of the world around us. Are we really ready to fully understand such a tremendous science/art/philosophy as astrology?

But, as for panels and forums, astrologers can enjoy the discussions if they don't degenerate into arguments. There are such strong opinions among Vedic-Jyotish practitioners that I'm not sure a panel on that topic would work very well. But others may have a different opinion.

Thanks again for your post, Michael,
Therese

[Robert_Schmidt]

"In thinking about it, I'm not sure how productive the planned panel will be because the three fields are so diverse. As you know, Schmidt is a Hellenistic specialist, Dykes has specialized in Medieval astrology, and Ernst Wilhelm has studied India's primary astrological texts. In other words these are three islands, and perhaps only Dykes has studied the connecting links to some extent since he's been a university professor specializing in ancient and medieval philosophy. However, he probably hasn't done much study, if any, of India's texts."

Hi Therese,

I have been following the interchanges between you, Ernst, and Michael with interest. At some point, I may have a few small points to make about the tropical/sidereal issue, but for the moment I want to address the opinion you have expressed in the above quotation.

I asked Michael to create this special panel to recreate and further the program we started at the 2006 PHASE Conclave. At that conclave we did just what I am proposing for the ACT forum. Ben Dykes was the representative of Medieval astrology, Ken Johnson (who did a very commendable job filling in for Ernst, as he was unable to attend due to a back injury) represented Vedic, and I held up the Hellenistic end with some support by Demetra George and others.

Amazingly, there was nothing fractious or even contentious during this week-long event. What we did was go through a point-by-point comparison of basic concepts and techniques, exploring the language used and the underlying paradigms the language evokes. The results were quite astonishing to all, including the audience I believe. We found many more points of agreement than disagreement from these three branches of astrology that are so alike in spirit and in practice.

As far as the historical issue of textual transmission is concerned, I believe a dialogue concerned with the content of the astrological texts holds out as much hope of settling the problem as does the dating of the texts, which can be a very tricky issue.

My main point here is that I am confident that such a panet can work because it already did work.

Robert Schmidt

[Therese_Hamilton]

Thank you, Robert! Based on what you've said, then I'm greatly looking forward to the panel discussion.

For anyone who would like a quick, but excellent overview of the historical development of India's astrology beginning with the most ancient texts, I recommend the introductory pages of Valerie Roebuck's THE CIRCLE OF STARS: An Introduction to Indian Astrology (Vega, 2002, generally available used from Amazon.com for a few dollars) Valerie Roebuck, PhD, studied at the University of Cambridge and is a Sanskrit scholar. Her book is the best introduction to India's astrology that I've seen.

Therese

[Michael Erlewine]

Dear Therese,

Thanks for the post. I am not an expert in ancient languages and as you point out we don’t have many in our field who are. The panel discussion “The Astrology Tradition in Retrospect” will be looking at the roots of Hellenistic astrology, which should be interesting. We can read but not post to this panel.

However, we can start any related threads on our own or even a thread to comment on their discussion. If you and other Vedic astrologers want to contact me to create a third Vedic forum, I am totally open to that. I am also trying to find some sources for Babylonian astrology, and am still waiting to hear about that. If the group of Vedic astrologers can’t overcome their differences and prejudices to have a courteous discussion, then that is a disappointment for us all. I have learned something from your discussion with Wilhelm and look forward to future discussions by the two of you and others.

In my experience, Vedic astrologers are very dedicated, sincere, and passionate about their work, and I look forward to seeing more of that dedication appearing here on ACT, which can be a wonderful place for the rest of us to learn.

My own view about looking into the past, and this is something that Robert Schmidt and I have discussed for a great many years now, is that whatever was true back then (ages ago) is still true today, because that is the definition of truth, something that last or endures. And truth is not only to be found by studying ancient astrological texts. Emerson’s essay on history comes to mind, where he wrote:

"All inquiry into antiquity is the desire to do away with this wild, savage, and preposterous There or Then, and introduce in its place, the Here and the Now. Belzoni (an archeologist) digs and measures in the mummy-pits and pyramids of Thebes until he can see the end of the difference between the monstrous work and himself. When he has satisfied himself, in general and in detail, that it was made by such a person as he, so armed and so motivated, and to ends to which he, himself, should also have worked, the problem is solved; his thought lives along the whole line of temples and sphinxes and catacombs, passes through them all with satisfaction, and they live again to the mind, or are NOW."

Just as we can search in ancient languages for how astrology works, whatever truth there is in that search is still true today and remains in the mind to be accessed by any of us with the will and patience to do so. We can go within our own mind and discover these same truths. In Tibetan Buddhism, there is the whole terton tradition of what is called ‘Mind Terma,’” in which sacred truths and teachings that are embedded in the mind itself, become available to us and are just waiting for the right moment and view to be discovered.

Looking in the mind is more the path I have taken, and I have been fortunate enough to find a number of rare and wonderful concepts right in the mind itself and bring them forth. For me this took the form of techniques like Local Space astrology, Helio Archetype Patterns, Heliocentric Planetary Nodes, Deep Space Astrology, and others. My most recent discovery, and please excuse my enthusiasm, is the concept of Phase Charts, and how to use full-phase aspects to create a special chart using the same aspects all astrologers use, but putting them together (like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle) to create an image of the natal chart that is almost three dimensional, like a hologram. I was and still am amazed by the Phase Chart’s ability to delineate. I feel certain that these very simple charts will become an important form of chart analysis in the near future. Some writing on this can be found in the “Aspects and Chart Patterns” forum.

So, please communicate your wishes and needs either here or elsewhere on the forum or to me personally at Michael@erlewine.net. It is my wish to make the ACT dialogs a refuge for real discussion among astrologers.

[Sam_Geppi]

Hi Michael et al,

I have not engaged in the discussions here because at the outset - the very first thread - the narrow parameters for this forum were drawn.

Ernst said:

"This being our belief, it is only logical for us to assume that there is only one Zodiac, whether Tropical or Sidereal. "

"I was shocked, but what could I do in the face of evidence but begin to use Tropical Rasis. So here we will largely discuss Vedic Astrology with the use of the tropical Zodiac, though one of our members is a sidereal Vedic Astrologer."

I am the "sidereal Vedic Astrologer" being referred to and have no desire to just be the devils advocate to a couple of premises I do not even agree with. I am way too busy with classes of my own, etc to do so.

Even in the last interaction with Therese Ernst said:

"In this forum I stated at the outset that we use tropical so as to avoid confusion as otherwise people would expect to see sidereal charts."

So, in truth, I think this forum should be the "Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum" as it seems those parameters are here and that is really all that Ernst (the moderator) wants to spend time on.. as he has stated to Therese and shown,, Which is fine by me.

Since you suggested another forum, I would be happy to moderate a more open Vedic Astrology Forum if you think that will be of benefit to the ACT community.

I recently have been conducting classes with western and vedic astrologers using all zodiacs and systems.. so I see the beauty in all of it - AND I have researched Jyotish quite a lot myself.

I would be happy to put some time into a forum like that.

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Hello Sam,
actually, you are not that sidereal vedic astrologer. It is someone else who still wanted to be on the panel even though we were all going to do tropical. He has entertained the idea of tropical in the past and has studied a lot of greek astrology as well as western and even though were were doing tropical he wanted to be part of the panel. He has been busy though and so has not posted anything as of yet.

Ernst

[Sam_Geppi]

actually, you are not that sidereal vedic astrologer.

I assumed that.. either way.

[Michael Erlewine]

Some quick thoughts here:

Good idea Sam. Please give me the name of the new forum and I will create it IF you will be moderator. I need help because I can’t do it all, and I have already started too many threads in hope of getting good discussions going, so Yes, let’s have more Vedic!

To all of you: the ACT forums as I tried to suggest in an earlier post are for discussion, dialog, and even the occasional polite argument. Otherwise there is no use for them at all.

I don’t feel that any post on this thread has been overbearing or controlling. I invited Ernst to moderate, and not vice versa, just as I am also asking Sem Geppi to moderate. Moderators are not controllers of anything EXCEPT they are responsible for suggesting people who should be invited to ACT to help carry on the dialogs. A moderator does not have any say about what is posted in his or her forum. They are simply a servant for the rest of us. I hope this is clear.

Onward!

[Roy_Kirkland]

Hi all,

I'd like to chime in on the subject - I'm not an opinionated supporter either zodiac. I think that most Hindu astrologers stay away from the Sayana or tropical zodiac for the same reason that Teviya (Fiddler on the Roof) was so hard on his daughter - tradition. But is that a "bad" thing? As long as it makes for accurate readings, I don't think so. If someone can take the system of calendric numerology called "four pillars" or "eight characters" in China, describe details about the subject of the reading and predict accurately, I don't have the time to figure out the correspondences, or worry about whether or not they use the Solar or Lunar calendar for their calculations. I like to enjoy the aria and applaud. And I believe that when you own your system, and somehow communicate with its structure, you've got it.

I've been a practicing astrologer for some time, and have found both zodiacs reliable. I studied and practiced the western sidereal system for many years. This system is consistent in producing accurate information with simple and well-tested techniques. The techniques of the school follow logically from one another, such that the progressed charts provide daily charts that show the angular positions of natal, transiting and progressed planets, and the planets in the mundane midpoints of the angles (which are emphasized by their inability to act). The Solar Returns also produce daily charts that do the same as the above, except that it is not standard practice to map in progressed planets. The Lunar returns (derived from both Natal and solar Return charts) produce these indications every two hours. The problem is that because the founders essentially threw out the zodiac (basing everything on the relationships between the planets and the horizon, fixed stars etc.), and tossed the concept of dignity along with it, there is no canon of interpretive guidelines for the system, other than a few hundred pages of material that could be whittled down to a great deal less. Trying to add in interpretive methods from other systems (today the progressed ascendant is 12 Scorpio, and there are no planets angular, but Mars is...) leads to analysis that is useless and time consuming for both the client and the interpreter. In the future, as the idea of the triggering of time periods distributed by the emphasized point(s) comes into vogue, then I think the brilliance of this system will be better appreciated. It is totally reliant on precession correction; but I believe that the only important precession is that from the birth epoch to the current or future event being charted. The use of the tropical zodiac for this method does not invalidate the technique, it just hurts the feelings of those dedicated to Fagan and Bradley. There is little out there as precise as this method.

Just a quick note about unprecessed return charts - about 20 years ago, I accidentally cast an unprecessed solar return for one of my friend's sister. I noticed that none of the angular positions were as expected and that the ascendant was off the normal "(appx.) 6 hours of RA per year" cycle - when I understood my error (computers let us make them) I set it aside because I wanted to look at it later. When I did, I noticed that the ruler/placement model (ruler of house a in house b) of interpretation worked perfectly. I occasionally refer to charts like this when in need of a quick overview of the year before delving into the serious stuff.

I taught myself Hindu astrology from the books of Dr. Raman some time before its recent popularity. When I could not make sense out of the transitions of the time periods (dasas) in my own chart, I began to play with the position of the Moon and the ayanamsa - of course, all of this was done during very precious time (when I felt like staying up at night). I only did it for myself and family members, because the time that it took to calculate Shad Bala and such by hand (there were no personal computers then) made it really bad business to put that much time into making charts for what people expected to donate in those days. Once I was able to produce Indian charts in a timely manner, I was able to study the dasa systems and other techniques in depth. I found the sidereal zodiac to work perfectly for these charts. The essential dignities seemed to work better than they did in the tropical system. It should be obvious to everyone that there is only a 20% chance of a planet being in the same sign in both zodiacs - so an exalted Mercury in a sidereal chart is likely to be in Libra in a tropical one. Although the zodiac in use does not matter in the western sidereal method, the interpretation of the dasa systems such as Vimsottari are sensitive to this. Strict dasa interpretations (as per Laghu Parasari) give excellent results when read by way of the dignities of the planets. This dasa is based on the Natal position on the Moon and planets - making it very simple to do predictive calculations by naked-eye astronomy.

Some Greek/Egyptian time lord systems are similar to those found in Jaimini, and there are others that are known, but not generally used, by Hindu astrologers. Their loyalty to tradition is unparalleled, and they would rather reject a predictive system as being unfathomable, or not applying to anyone other than adepts etc. than take a look at why it is not working. I also agree that the Jaimini system may be meant for use with the Tropical zodiac, but I will have to do some serious study of Chara dasa, Sthira dasa and Sudasa to form a solid opinion about that. Astakavarga, a very useful system, is zodiac independent (but not precession proof). It is based on a planet distributing to a specific eighth portion of a zodion, according to the image's (sign's) distance from that planet (including the Horskopos, or Lagna).

When it comes to the the Solar Return, most Hindu astrologers follow the method of Tajika, and use the Sidereal zodiac. It is a very interesting system, because it has a strength calculation called "Hudda Bala" which is based on the planetary confines (Terms) that is quite interesting in it's indications. I believe that the founder of this system, known as Neelakantha, was either Al-Biruni or one of his disciples for several reasons, the first being the name of the style being geographically referenced to Al-Biruni's territory (Tajikistan, Uzbekhistan etc.) and his many writings about India. There is also a method of calculation (I think the method is called dhruvakana) designed to compensate for the precession problem. This was developed before the techniques of accurate calculation were possible - I have seen a reference to this in Hellenistic astrology, but cannot comment as to the degree of similarity that they share.

In the Tajika system, the majority of useful analysis rests on the application and separation of planetary aspects, and the annual dasa system, both of which are internally referenced. The most commonly taught annual dasa is designed in a way that the zodiac in use is not so important as sidereal loyalists might think - the periods of time and their main indications are based on the separation (by degree disregarding sign), aspects and "house" positions of the planets. This system makes use of Al-Biruni's list of Arabic parts (they did not have the Hermetic Lots), and works by the same rules, for all intents and purposes, as traditional Horary Astrology. I hope in the future to obtain properly translated versions of this Neelakantha as well as the Jaimini Sturas so that I can make a rigorous demonstration of these surmises.

In studying Hellenistic methods, my first opinion was that since the methods seemed to be quite effective at the time of convergence, maybe the sidereal zodiac would work better. What's unfunny about that in many ways is that I could make solid arguments from either direction, because so many of the special features of outstanding horoscopes are not zodiac-specific (heliacal phenomena etc.). In other words, I have many charts of individuals whose lives are more or less public property (AKA celebrities) in which their sidereal dignities really tell their stories very well, but when applying circumambulation, aphesis and annual profections, the tropical zodiac works out perfectly. I am doing some writing on this subject, because of the importance of the time-lord methods to astrology in general, and will post some of my humble observations to the Hellenistic board when the conversation turns in that direction. I am still working out questions I have about Valens and company, but that's another story.

I am a working astrologer, and I do not have much time to participate fully in forums. I don't keep a lot of this on top of my head because I spend most of my day looking at charts and talking about them with clients, so I appreciate these discussions when they are available to me.

Maybe something can be done to put future panel discussions into the form of eBooks, or recorded conference calls, so that they can be made available to students in the future. We can get so much more out through the living word (speaking) than we can by typing anyway - Oh, sorry about the sloppy language, it's another busy day here - and hi Therese - long time no hear...