Examining Charts with Tropical and Sidereal Zodaics

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Sure, I should be able to get around to it tommorow, in the meantime please send your thoughts on the woman's chart which I posted earlier. For those who want to try the size and body technique, here are the qualities:

Aries, Leo, Cap Large, meaning height, large structure etc.
Gemini, Virgo, Libra, Sag, Aquarius and Pisces - average size and build
Scorpio Small and thin and hairy
Cancer, average size but tends towards bulk or stout.
Taurus long/tall, but not the heavy structure of aries, leo or cap.

Sun - average size, less hair, square build
Moon - average size, round build
Mars - not very tall, lean
Mercury perfectly proportioned and medium build
Jupiter Large
Venus average size, easily builds muscle in men, voluptous (though not neccesarily beautiful) features in woman. Curly hair. May be excessively curly when Venus is influenced by saturn.
Saturn Tall and lean and thick body hair.

Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Thank you, Ernst for being specific about some of your techniques. I think many will be interested in this and any of your following posts on techniques. I'll start with a few comments that occurred to me:

"Lagna is said to be small and slender..." At any rate, this woman is small and slender.

Here's my problem: I have a number of charts where men with that area rising are tall. They are slender, however but not dark. So we can assume planetary influence on the ascendant that would modify the appearance of the sign? I always assumed that area of the zodiac was tall because it's Jupiter's mansion in sidereal Libra.

I do know a sidereal Scorpio rising male who is very hairy and short, but not especially slender. No aspect of Saturn to the ascendant.

So taking the woman's chart, could I guess that she was small and slender? No, I'd only expect something unusual about her appearance because the nodes cross the asc/desc line. I'd expect that she would probably be unlike her family.

Heart trouble: For the breast I'd look to the 4th house. Since sidereal Capricorn is on the 4th cusp, we have Saturn in Cancer joined to Mars. (The same is true tropically since Aquarius is on cusp 4.) Also the Sun (said to rule the heart) is in the 6th house with Jupiter, 6th lord. I've always found house positions much stronger than sign positions as such. Tropically this Jupiter is the 5th lord, an excellent planet for Scorpio rising.

I always thought that for a woman the Sun, Moon, asc in female signs referred to an attractive appearance and very feminine, even sexy mannerisms. Like Marilyn Monroe, for example, who has Asc, Sun and Moon in sidereal feminine signs. Katherine Hepburn, very mannish, has planets in male signs.

I would expect wealth to be associated with the 2nd and 11th houses. So sidereally the lords of 11th (Sun) and 2nd (Jupiter) are conjoined in Aries. Tropically the 11th lord is Mercury conjoined to Ketu. But since the sidereal 2nd lord is also conjoined to Ketu as well as the 11th lord, I'd expect loss at some point in the life.

"Non threatening..." Venus in Pisces making close aspect to the ascendant.

"Never moved in directions she does not feel good about." This is sidereal Aries, firm and centered due to the Sun's exaltation and the inner strength of Mars. (Sidereal Aries isn't like tropical Aries.) Also Jupiter can give firmness and inner strength.

Ernst, I don't think you read very far on my web site since there's an article on sidereal Aries which would fit this chart. This chart has a balance of male/female energy due to the aspect of Venus to the ascendant along with the Sun-Jupiter conjunction in Aries. I wouldn't expect this lady to be super-feminine and ‘sexy,' but the Venus position would keep her from being overly masculine.

So, suggested:
"The woman in question is tiny, sweet (Venus in Pisces aspect to the ascendant), but with a firm staying power (sid Aries and/or Jupiter with the sun, a strong feminine spirit (strong spirit = Jupiter) and hairy (have to use tropical Scorpio for that) with a heart disorder (4th lord with Mars and Sun with 6th lord in 6th.)

What I'm trying to say in this post is that (as astrologers know) the horoscope is complex and composed of many factors. We can usually find an explanation for traits in either zodiac. I use planetary aspects and house positions and rulers a great deal. If we want to be precise in testing zodiacs, we should perhaps have a number of charts that share a factor--such as heart trouble for example. Then we could see if either or both zodiacs had a plausible explanation in all the charts. (Medical astrology is a bit tricky since we're not physicians.)

So I'm getting a more clear picture of why you use the tropical zodiac, Ernst. I may not agree, but I'm happy to be enlightened on your reasons. Certainly appearance is a fruitful area for research.

Therese

[Therese_Hamilton]

"Mars - not very tall, lean"

Then I'd look at that close aspect of Mars to the lady's ascendant for being smaller and lean.

Also "soft, thick watery skin." Could easily be moist Venus in wet Pisces aspecting the ascendant. (Venus in Aries would be dry and hot.)

The planets would be the same in both zodiacs, but the sign influence on planets would be different of course. Well, if it was all obvious astrologers would have figured it out long ago.

Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Therese,
some comments:

Here's my problem: I have a number of charts where men with that area rising are tall. They are slender, however but not dark. So we can assume planetary influence on the ascendant that would modify the appearance of the sign? I always assumed that area of the zodiac was tall because it's Jupiter's mansion in sidereal Libra.I do know a sidereal Scorpio rising male who is very hairy and short, but not especially slender. No aspect of Saturn to the ascendant.

EW>>>You have to take into account the trimsamsa, rasi is only half the equation as I mentioned. half a technique will not validate anything.


Heart trouble: For the breast I'd look to the 4th house. Since sidereal Capricorn is on the 4th cusp, we have Saturn in Cancer joined to Mars. (The same is true tropically since Aquarius is on cusp 4.) Also the Sun (said to rule the heart) is in the 6th house with Jupiter, 6th lord. I've always found house positions much stronger than sign positions as such. Tropically this Jupiter is the 5th lord, an excellent planet for Scorpio rising.

EW>>>>Saturn is not joined mars sidereally, mars is in Gemini sidereally, not cancer. WIht sidereal zodaic you will of course find house positions more meaningful than rasi positions for such things, cuase the sidereal rasis will not work. But according to the Indian astrology texts those things need to be considered from the Rasis. Bhava do not change all that much between tropical and sidereal. But Rasis do, and they give their effects. If you are finding house positions working better, does that not tell you something. Look for Sun Saturn and Saturn Mars conjunctions in the signs. If there, there will be a tendancy towards these health complaints:
Aries: Heart
Taurus: Kidney
Gemini: Spleen/metobolic
Cancer: Chest Areas, possible heart
Leo: Imbalances with heat
VIrgo Stomach
Libra BLadder
Scorpio Small Intestines
Sag Gall Bladder
Cap Large Intestines
Aquarius Lungs
Pisces Liver

EW>>>Additionally, the signs of Mars can indicate trouble to the nervous system, the signs of jupiter to the endocrine system, cancer to the circulatory system, Leo to teh skelatal and immune system, signs of Mercury to the skin and senses; signs of Venus to the digestive system, Signs of Saturn to the muscular system.


I always thought that for a woman the Sun, Moon, asc in female signs referred to an attractive appearance and very feminine, even sexy mannerisms. Like Marilyn Monroe, for example, who has Asc, Sun and Moon in sidereal feminine signs. Katherine Hepburn, very mannish, has planets in male signs.

EW>>>No, odd even signs do not affect beauty and all these in female signs do not create overt sexuality. WOmen put out more sexual energy when the are dominated by male factors. Women dominated by female factors do not put out excess sexuality.


"Non threatening..." Venus in Pisces making close aspect to the ascendant.

EW>>>Is that one venus aspect going to remove all intesne parts of three planets in aries? Of course not, it will reduce it, but this person has NONE.

"Never moved in directions she does not feel good about." This is sidereal Aries, firm and centered due to the Sun's exaltation and the inner strength of Mars. (Sidereal Aries isn't like tropical Aries.) Also Jupiter can give firmness and inner strength.

EW>>>>>>Sun in Aries is firm in action, I am talking about firm in a passive femine way. Aries is firm and can be stubborn because they are DOING what they are DOING, i am talking about anchored feminine strength which this person has, she has NONE of the aries or SUn firmness.

EW>>>>>>>>What is important to test is simpel things that affect signs, other wise it gets confused very quickly. Saturn/Mars conjucntions in signs is a good thing to consider. It will always impact that sign.

>>>Then you consider the aspect of mars to make her small, but then the aspect of Jupiter will make her larger again. WIthout scorpio this person is jsut not going to be this small. ALso, health problems can cause weight gain, so when looking at a persons build, always consider thier structure. A ligth structered person can have metobolic imbalances that cause weight gain for instance.

Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Ernst, I have to work today, so will reply later--in the late afternoon or evening.

In the meantime I look forward to your take on the April 23 chart. I'm not really here to argue a point of view. My main interest is in understanding how you came up with your preference for the tropical zodiac. So perhaps you'll have time to give an example of another technique. I know many are interested in your reasons, probably everyone who knows the name "Ernst Wilhelm"

For anyone interested in appearance, there are two Tropical books on appearance that I know of: E.C. Matthews' THE ASCENDING SIGN (1970) and Judith A. Hill's THE ASTROLOGICAL BODY TYPES (1993, 1997). For those who use a sidereal zodiac, Hill makes an interesting comment:

"The sun sign. Beware of sign cusps. People born within one or even two days of sign cusps or borders may resemble their neighboring sign. This is most frequent for people born at the tail-end of one sign. This same rule can hold for cusping ascendants." (p. 35)

The ends of tropical signs are the overlap area of sidereal signs.

Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

In respect to the male born 4/23 1974 at 7:11 AM in Oakland CA I will mostly focus on things relevant to the signs, doing my best not to bring other things in, though, of course, I will have to do so as at least a little bit as it all comes together into one person.

Taurus Lagna indicates a taller person, normally slender, however the Sun in the lagna will increase the structer of the person, larger bones, more square build, but just a bit as the Moon there will keep the build from getting overly square. Venus the Lagna lord in pisces with Jupiter also increases the mass of the person. So at first glance this would present quite a tall and relatively large person. However, considering the trimsamsa which has equal say on the build, Aries is the lagna with Lagna lord Mars in scorpio. This would lighten the build a bit and shorten it as compared to just looking at the rasi chart, so we would not expect an unusually tall person as we would if one were to just considering the rasi, but still a somewhat taller and larger person than average. If the person is larger than that then it is possible that the trimsamsa lagna is incorrect as only a few seconds earlier birth would give a Pisces lagna with the Moon and Venus in pisces which would greatly soften the features and increase mass, especaily since Jupiter is in Cancer trimsamsa. This would be a point that I would use to adjust time as neccessary. If bigger than expected would reduce birth time by a few seconds. Trimsamsa lagna changes every 4 minutes on the average, but he is right on the begining of the trimsamsa lagna, just 2:55 Aries there.

Health, with Lagna lord exalted with jupiter in own sign in 11th the indiviudal would have relatively good constitution even though the Sun and Moon in the Lagna are generally not good for health. Weakness would revolve around the circulatory system due to Mars and Saturn in Cancer and diseases in the chest and heart. Additionally, Lagna lord exalted in 11th is great for gettign over any physical illnesses. WIth ketu in Gemini and its lord in the 12th with a debilitated 12th lord in the 3rd there would be weakness to the lungs and thyroid brought about by the weakness to the circulatory system. Fortunately, they have Venus in Pisces in the trimsamsa, Mars in scorpio, Jupiter in Cancer and Saturn in Libra. So while the Rasi indicates some weakness in body, the ill karma to actaully suffer disease is not shown strongly and so it woudl take a lot of abuse before weaknesses break down the body and they would have strong recuperative powers in the event of disease.

An intereseting feature of this chart is that there is one planet in the 2nd and one in the 12th. Then there are two in the 3rd and 2 in the 11th. These two combinations indicate bhandana yogas, yogas of bondage and getting stuck. Individuals with these yogas often feel stuck in life and may even find themselves in some form of physical bondage or limitation. WHile I have seen people in great positions in life with these yogas, they still feel like that position is a position of bondage that somehow is holding them back or frustrating them.

The Sun, Moon and Lagna in even signs is not ideal for a male, however, he is at least born during the daytime which gives a bit of masculine energy. Still, this person would be a sensitive and somewhat femine man. Had malefics been in the 10th from the Sun or Lagna, then this senstifvity would have ruined him, as it is, he is a somewhat feminine male, but one that is quite happy to be that way and who has learned to live life productively regardless.

In western astrology there is the idea that fixes signs on the lagna make for a stable, fixed person. That is not how it is done in Hindu astrology, rather, it depends on the signs of the 7 planets. Here we have 3 in moveable, 2 in fixed and two in dual rasis, so more in moveable than any other type. This would indicate a person with a tendency towards changes in his life, and in respect to the long lasting things in thier life, change within those things. SO the tendency would go in that direction, though it would not be the most extreme case since 2 planets are, at least, in fixed rasis.

Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

A few comments on your reply, Ernst, though as I said, I'm not here to argue for a point of view. I'm here because like many others I'm interested in why you've changed to tropical signs.

EW>>>>Saturn is not joined mars sidereally, mars is in Gemini sidereally, not cancer...

[Therese:} I know. Though I do cross signs for conjunctions with small orbs, I misread the degrees of Mars last evening. I have Mars and Saturn in the same bhava in the chart. However the Sun (if it rules the heart) is conjunct Saturn from the navamsa. I read that as a natal conjunction.

You'll no doubt notice that I don't stay firmly with Indian concepts from the old texts though I have all the books. So you could call me a sidereal astrologer, but not strictly a Jyotish astrologer. I do use the navamsa chart all the time, however, and check the other varga charts for specfic topics. I also calculate dasas, but read the solar return more like western astrologers do. My methods evolved over many years of experimentation. I've seen that a number of western astrologers tend to combine eastern and western techniques in their work.

EW>>>> Bhavas do not change all that much between tropical and sidereal.

[Therese:] Any single bhava system wouldn't change between zodiacs unless we're using whole sign houses. Then that's the Rasi chart, of course.

I've found health problems more related to the planets and houses rather than the signs. To test health in horoscopes we'd have to have at least 20 or 30 charts with the same complaints or illness. I haven't worked much with health, not being a trained physician. But astrologers can still look for patterns in illness as you're doing. My medical friend-astrologer-physician-consultant, Dr. Margaret Millard, died some years ago. So I'm very cautious with health matters.

EW>>>No, odd even signs do not affect beauty and all these in female signs do not create overt sexuality....

[Therese:] A good test of masculine and feminine signs is to simply take popular film stars with known ascendants and consider planetary placement in signs. I've done this to a certain extent and have come up with obvious male and female characteristics. For example, Marilyn Monroe is wholly female in appearance and the roles she's played in movies. Katherine Hepburn is more the 'tough lady,' certainly not sexual in the usual female sense. Johnny Depp is quite feminine for a man. And so on. This is easy to check out.

There are many, many examples of this kind of symbolism. Again, rather than rely on texts, I've simply made notes on current men and women whose charts we have. This is just another project I've been collecting data on. I could use a file clerk and assistant! Everything has to be fit into a work schedule and family responsibilities.

I care very deeply about astrological research. Many years ago when I was struggling with astrological texts, especially the old ones, a very clear dream was given to me. In the dream I opened my top file drawer and it was filled with copies of "Astrology Now." That was one indication of several I've received to pursue modern observational research rather than (for me at least) to fit analysis into precepts from books. We now have thousands of timed charts for study. Years ago all we had were the few people we came in contact with in our work or from reading a few magazine articles.

EW>>>Then you consider the aspect of mars to make her small, but then the aspect of Jupiter will make her larger again.

[Therese:] No, because Mars is the only planet besides Venus that makes a close aspect by orb to the ascendant. Jupiter's orb is too wide. (as I read horoscopes) So I'd be putting a lot of emphasis on those two planets in relation to appearance. Also I use the navamsa ascendant which contains Mars (in Taurus) in this case. That's another reason I'd emphasize Mars for her appearance.

But being trained in psychology and being interested in data such as professions, I haven't paid much attention to appearance. It's nothing I've carefully studied, except I've noted that the brow structure often correlates with decanates on the ascendant.

So you and I are working from different foundation premises, which doesn't make either approach wrong. It's an interesting comparison. It's the astrological female (of either gender) who likes to compare and dialog on equal terms, the astrological male who likes to have the position of the teacher with authority. Either can be a teacher, but the approach of each to teaching is quite different.

If you have time, please comment on the interests and jobs/profession of the April 23 male. Thanks.

Best,
Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Honestly Therese, if we can not agree on what techniques to work there is no point in continuing, for everything i say you will simply explain it away in another way. I really don't care what zodiac other astrologers use - 10% of my students use sidereal and I let them come to class. In this forum I stated at the outset that we use tropical so as to avoid confusion as otherwise people would expect to see sidereal charts. I do the same on my website with a lengthy free class explaining my position on the zodiac. If you ever want to get serious with testing zodiacs with replicable techniques then I am happy to converse with you, but otherwise I just do not have the time. I regularly have free phone sessions with people who are interested in the seriously considering the idea of tropical rasis. You just do not seem to be in that mode, so I will just respond your query one more time about why I decided to go with tropical:

1. Evidence in the ancient texts shows that the Hindus lost the knowldedge of precession between 00 and 600 AD.
2. Greater evidence in the ancient texts pointed towards tropical zodiac.
3. Tropical zodiac appears more logical.
4. The above three prompted me to test every technique in the hindu texts that I have ever learned for 2 years and the tropical worked out better every time.

I am not saying the tropical results were perfect - no technique is 100% perfect and so no zodiac will give perfect results, but the tropical results were more accurate by 35 % on the average. I know this, I statistically tested it on charts. I am not interesting in debating it. If you want to explore tropical zodiac because the possibility appeals to you, then I am happy to spend my time with you, but otherwise I have to spend my time with people who the ideas appeals to and with my work which I am always behind in. I am not trying to convert people, but people who are the tropical idea appeals to I am happy to talk to.


Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Hi Ernst,

I wrote the post below before reading your latest. I thought this forum was for an honest comparison of zodiacs--didn't realize it was for only showing how the tropical worked with Vedic technqiues. I used the tropical zodiac for ten years, and I know how it works. So I won't bother you anymore, as we know that you and I don't agree on the basics. So let's agree to be friends with diverse outlooks, O.K? I think GRAHA SUTRAS was a great book, but when I read that you had a plan for a book on the rasis, I knew you'd run into trouble with the zodiacs. I predicted this a long time ago. I'm a professional astrologer, have been since the 70s. I'm an "old lady!" My post is below.

Best wishes,
Therese

Ernst wrote:

In respect to the male born 4/23 1974 at 7:11 AM in Oakland CA...Taurus Lagna indicates a taller person, normally slender (...) so we would not expect an unusually tall person as we would if one were to just considering the rasi, but still a somewhat taller and larger person than average (...)

[Therese:] For a man he is average in every way: average build, average height. I should know his height exactly, but don't. As a child (Moon on the ascendant) he tended to be soft and round, not fat, but not slender either. Very good looking and built well in adulthood, not square, just a good masculine build, well proportioned. I suspect he'd put on weight without regular exercise and regular workouts. (I say this because Moon is on the ascendant.)

Health: So far health has been excellent with so known problems. He even has sold (part time) a health product. Very conscious of eating well and exercising. So I can't comment on any possible health problems that might show up at a later age. (So there is no verification or lack of it for specific comments on health and illness.)

[Ernst:] An interesting feature of this chart is that there is one planet in the 2nd and one in the 12th. Then there are two in the 3rd and 2 in the 11th. These two combinations indicate bhandana yogas, yogas of bondage and getting stuck. Individuals with these yogas often feel stuck in life and may even find themselves in some form of physical bondage or limitation. WHile I have seen people in great positions in life with these yogas, they still feel like that position is a position of bondage that somehow is holding them back or frustrating them.

[Therese:] This man has had a generally fortunate life. He has taken the initiative to get what he wants--in a quiet way. After high school and some education he wanted to do a certain kind of work and went to the city and company he was interested in and offered to work for free. He told them if they liked him, they could hire him, which they did after an initial trial period.

He has easily moved from one position to another as doors opened and closed for him. It's interesting to watch--career-wise one thing has flowed into another. His life could be called "lucky." Yes, there have been difficulties, but he's not one to sit and put up with problems. He'll do something about them.

EW>>>>The Sun, Moon and Lagna in even signs is not ideal for a male, however, he is at least born during the daytime which gives a bit of masculine energy. Still, this person would be a sensitive and somewhat femine man.

[Therese:] Ernst, I posted this data for a reason because I knew that in the tropical zodiac the Asc, Sun and Moon were in a feminine sign, and sidereally they're all in Aries. This man is a "hunk" very masculine in every way. "Hey, what's up? Cool!" Hangs with the guys. I don't want to give away what he's done in life, but there's nothing feminine about him personally. As a child he liked to be alone and...well, he has the same ascendant degree (or a degree away...I forget which) as George Lucas. He collected every Star Wars toy and figure there was. For years he was obsessed with Star Wars. Of course Mars rules Aries while Venus rules Taurus. Is there something Venusian about Star Wars? (Except Princess Lea and Amadala) Star *Wars.*

EW>>>He is a somewhat feminine male, but one that is quite happy to be that way and who has learned to live life productively regardless.

EW>>>>In western astrology there is the idea that fixed signs on the lagna make for a stable, fixed person. That is not how it is done in Hindu astrology, rather, it depends on the signs of the 7 planets. Here we have 3 in moveable, 2 in fixed and two in dual rasis, so more in moveable than any other type. This would indicate a person with a tendency towards changes in his life, and in respect to the long lasting things in their life, change within those things. So the tendency would go in that direction, though it would not be the most extreme case since 2 planets are, at least, in fixed rasis.

[Therese:] I'm sorry, but this sounds rather vague to me. I can't get a good picture of what you're saying. A tendency toward changes, it sounds like, but this is true of most of us in our fast-paced society. What kind of changes? When? In what life areas? (I've read recently that hardly any jobs are secure in our times, and the average person can expect to change careers several times in his/her life. It's common for many people to move every 5 years or so, etc. Many travel frequently for play or work. We're a restless society.)

So what do we have? Please correct me, Ernst, if I'm not reading you right.

(1) EW: A somewhat larger and taller build than usual. (The birth was recorded by the father in the delivery room. The same time was on the hospital birth certificate.)
Fact: He's average--I can probably get height and weight for you if you're interested. Not overly tall, not short, not fat, not thin.

(2) Health: cannot comment as health so far has been excellent. He's concerned about staying in good health and works toward that end.

(3) He's very masculine, good looking, interested in staying fit physically. Not at all feminine except as a child he could be called ‘pretty' due to Moon on the ascendant. Ascendant is said to be early life.

(4) EW: A tendency toward change, but not extreme change.

If anyone else is reading this, it would be interesting to see more comments. Ernst, I don't know if you'll have time to touch on other topics for this chart. So far all we have is appearance and health and a judgement as to masculine/feminine. What about his psychology? Work? Interests?

Thanks,
Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Therese,
The last thing I will say about this chart is to define what I mean when I say "masculine." My students and the peers I associate are rather well educated on what masculine and feminine energy is, so I beleive I expected it to be known by all, but that is obviously not the case. Masculine energy is active, inititative energy, the energy of doing. It is not hanging out with the dudes. Masculine energy does not hang out, feminine energy hangs out as that is a passive social activity. Mascule energized men are busy, active, always something to do or take care off.

Peace to you,
Ernst