Heliacal Appearances (Phaseis):Greece/Babylon

[Robert_Blaschke]

A picture is worth 1000 words when trying to visualize the phase changes within the overall synodic cycle of the Sun and an inferior planet:

Venus.jpeg (47.39 KiB) Viewed 1491 times

[Rumen_Kolev]

I have made a suggestion regarding how to give astrological meaning to a planet that makes its exact heliacal rising before or after the standard 15 portion interval.

But how do you define 'exact heliacal rising' ?
And how do you compute it ?
Because if we do not answer these 2 questions first then there is no 'interpretation' either....

Everybody among the Greeks and most of the Arabs knew what heliacal rise is !
This is not when a planet is 15 degrees distant from the Sun, but
...quando exeunt de sub radiis solis et incipiunt apparere de mane...
...when they come out of the beams of the Sun and begin to appear in the dawn...

So, any 'Statistics' or 'study' based on false dates of 'heliacal phases' would be useless.
If we were to collect charts of people born when Mercury was visible ( NOT 'upo dusin' ) then how do we do this ?
Compute the day when Mercury is 15 or more degrees away !
Hell no !
We should compute the days when Mercury REALLY was visible and in this way we should examine people in the 'clinical' practice.
I hope you follow me exactly.
The real heliacal phase of a planet is a REAL thing and we can get Real results only working with real things !
The visibility of a planet JUST like the price of a stock on the stock-market tells the essence of what it's worth...

I respect the Hellenistic Astrologers who worked with their rough method of 15 degrees from the Sun, because they simply did not know better.
But only if they knew how to compute the real phases, can you guess what would they work with ...?

So, the real practical research would be in this way.
Look for groups of people with invisible planet for example.
Let us say Mars.
Cardan says that women with invisible Mars are prone to casual sex.
I have seen this in several cases in good correllation with the facts.
But in day charts only.
In night charts- it is the opposite !

One interesting fact: Hitler had Invisible Mars!
Though that Mars is 16 degrees away from his Sun.
Mars in Hitler stays invisible +-7 days from his Birth.
So, he is not making a phase in the +-7 days interval.

It is impossible to understand Bill Gates without the h phases too.
Venus rose in the morning 3 days before his birth and Mercury 6 (days before).

[i say again that i work with the real heliacal phases here. i examine people with a program that computes these real heliacal phases]

I am collecting also what the Greeks say about planets 'upo dusin' or 'upaugos'.
So, Robert I will appreciate if you have a ready list with these. I can add to it too.
I think Michael Erlewine should enable us also to write in Greek letters on this forum
But, Michael, I am serious - Can you do this ? I promise I will not ask for Akkadian at least not now

One last thing:

When I think about the Real Heliacal Phases and these computed on the ecliptic (15 deg. away from Sun),
this reminds me of,
the Real Primary Directions and the Symbolic 1 ecliptical deree = 1 year !

In the end I will give here the days since the birth of Bill Gates (Gates-era) when MERCURY was visible in Seattle for 0.24 extinction (which is the correct one there).
[small move to the south or noth may change the dates dramatically]
MF = Morning First
ML = Morn. Last
EF = Eve First
EL = Eve Last
Mercury Seattle extinction = 0.24
22 Oct 1955 MF
18 Nov 1955 ML

30 Dec 1955 EF
16 Jan 1956 EL

14 Apr 1956 EF
07 May 1956 EL

07 June 1956 MF
08 June 1956 ML

07 Oct 1956 MF
30 Oct 1956 ML

21 Dec 1956 EF
26 Dec 1956 EL

And let us finish with the Chart of Bill Gates.
You will see that he has Invisible Saturn.
3 doriphoria and 2 planets making Phases = Most Powerful Chart
His Guardian angels are powerful.
Mercury is also his Ego (also Venus has big influence).

bill_gates_Porphyrius_Magus.jpg (229.09 KiB) Viewed 1490 times

Here the systems of computation are:

Porphyry : God's Light - Guardian Angels : Epikratetor-Oikodespotes: Hyleg-Alcocoden: Moon - Mars and Venus
Porphyry : House system: ( 5 degrees cusps offset)
Porphyry (my Interpretaion) : Ego: Kurios:Almuten: Mercury
Porphyry : Doriphoria: Jupiter, Mercury, Mars (contra-doriphoria, par airesin Jupiter )

Hyleg: Aura of Light
Angel: Wings
Ego: Crown
Contra-Doriphoria: black axes

[If we compute the Kurios according to your interpretation of Porpyry, Robert, we will get as Kurios the Moon followed by Mars ]

Now here is again the Chart of Bill Gates- this time with the WHOLE-SIGN house system.
Here also the Second Round of the Porphyrius Kurios-Algorithm is switched off.
Now Venus is the Ego- the King-the Almuten

bill_gates_Porphyrius_Magus_Whole_Sign.jpg (246.06 KiB) Viewed 1382 times

Now.
The Kurios closest to the blood-line of the Ancient King who founded the country, this Kurios is VENUS.
She comes with most rulerships in the First Round.
However, Mercury is also of very strong Royal Blood and More-Powerful than Venus.
This is shown by the Second Round of choosing the Kurios (as described by the historic Porphyry)
Mercury is more powerful.
He may rule the country better.
That's why Porphyrius Magus (Porphyry put into a computer program) annoints him for the King.

The next screen shows How actually Porphyrius Magus computes the Kurios.
The first row is the first round of computation where we line up the candidates.
The second row is how we choose from all candidates the one
-" most epitomizing the whole Genesis (birth-chart) " [Porphyry]-
and proclaim him for the King.

bill_gates_Kurios_Porphyrius_Magus.jpg (160.1 KiB) Viewed 1364 times

This is my working theory of Porphyry here BUT we are free to custom it and tell Porphyrius Magus how to conform it to other views.

[Rumen_Kolev]

clearlly, the standardized 15 portion interval for heliacal rising and the seven-day variance

Hi Robert,

I should have noticed this before. I did not.
But now I think I understand what you mean.
You mean that the schema of the Greeks for the Heliacal Phases was
15 degrees distance from SUN== Average Perfect Value== +-7 days standart deviation or variance as you said.

Nowhere in the texts, tough, is said that a planet rises +7 days from the time when 15 degrees from the Sun.
This would be of course not correct too.
also a standart deviation in 'days' for a mean in 'degrees' does not square up

What is said in the texts is that a Planet appearing or disappearing or stationary +-7 days from birth are extremely important for the native and can claim the Crown of the Kurios (the Ego).

I would say that the meaning of this is exactly what is said. +-7 days from the Real Heliacal Phase.
And how exactly the Greek Astrologers computed the Phase is another question.

[Robert_Schmidt]

I will stand my ground here. If you study the three chart examples from Antigonus in Book II, chapter 18 of Hephaistio, you will see how his language conforms to what I have been saying: a planet qualifies as making an appearance when it achieves (or has achieved) a 15-portion elongation from Hēlios within a certain range of days.

(The third example does not give exact planetary positions, but the recalculated chart by Neugebauer also agrees with my assertion.)

[Rumen_Kolev]

Yes. I think we go in different trains of logic here.
You are technically correct.
They (the Hellenistic astrologers) count a planet as making a phase if it is 15 degrees from the SUn.
Then they search the planets that satisfy this condition +-7 days from Birth and take them for very significant.
No argument here. That's what the majority of them did.

My thought is that this was simply their way of 'computation' and that the Real Heliacal Phases as observed in Babylonia lay in the basis of this practice.
The +-7 day interval was something like a period of validity for the Sign (Omen) given through an Appearing-Planet.

No-one will argue though that the h phases were the main phenomena of interest for the Babylonian astrologers and these were mighty portends.
Also the Babylonians knew how to compute them exactly to the day.
This knowledge was lost in theory until ~1900 and in practice it is still lost until today (if you do not count me) !!

Another fact is that Ptolemy tried to figure out more correct way of computation.
This clearly points that the Hellenistic astrologers were interested how to compute the Real H Phases.

I mean if we follow the Ancient Medicine and it prescribes in certain case 'taking out of a tooth' this does not mean we must use the tools of the Ancient Medicine -wooden stick and a stone- to do this...

It is good to know what exactly was the practice of the Ancient Astrologers.
At the same time it is even better to see the real bases of this practice.

And it is very useful to know the Doctrines of the Most Ancient Source of Astrology- the Sumerians and the Babylonians.
Many things in the Hellenistic Astrology come from there directly though they suffered change on the way.
ONE EXAMPLE
The SYZYGIES
The Arabs take ALWAYS the place of the Moon (for opposition syzygy) BUT
Ptolemy takes the Sun or the Moon, whichever is above the horizon (at the time of birth)..
Who is closer to the Truth??
If we know the Babylonian Source, we will know also the answer to this QUESTION.
So, any ideas ???

[Roy_Kirkland]

My observations of many charts seem to bear out the importance of studying heliacal phenomena dynamically, especially in the context of secondary progressions (which, according to Mr. Schmidt, were known to the Hellenistic authors). I have not studied these phenomena with Tertiaries or Minors - I do not use them in my practice, and I'm very picky about my use of secondary progressions.

For example, I have several charts in which Aphrodite (Venus) is closely conjunct Helios (invisible). In most cases, if the individual married, the marriage occurred at an age that would have been +-7 ephemeris days of the date when Aphrodite would have been separated by 15 degrees from Helios as listed in an ephemeris - this is progressed Aphrodite and progressed Helios. I don't have examples in which this indication is wrong in which it cannot be explained by something obvious, like this conjunction occurring in Pisces. Most of the cases have Aphrodite in really bad shape (12th in Virgo etc.) with no other really straightforward explanation why matters concerning Aphrodite should have any good results at all, other than indications that could fall under the "no promise in the birth chart" argument. This technique can be used when charts have no known birthtime, and can be used as part of a rectification procedure (i.e. looking backwards to see if a known marriage date concurs with a heliacal phenomena time-frame by secondary progression). These "heliacal progressions" seem to support time-lord indications that may be overlooked.

The reason, as far as I can tell, a marriage (as an example) never happens (or is extremely problematic) is because there are no heliacal phenomena (of Aphrodite, in the case of marriage) at an appropriate age by progression. Of course the testimonies, position and other relationships of the planet to the rest of the chart are important in explaining the result of this dynamic, and I have only scratched the surface of this study. I believe secondary progressions work so well here because they equate years to days, and heliacal phenomena are dependent on the relationship of the planets to Helios, who defines the day. Other directive methods such as symbolic directions, time-lord procedures, dasa systems and Primary Direction do not share this relationship, although something of a case may be made for primaries (although the "day" measure of things as in secondary progressions).

I do not have a program that calculates exact dates of these phenomena, as Mr. Kolev's does, but I am looking into the subject when I have time. I have not moved this thinking from theory to practice yet, so I'm not in a defensive position about it - and I don't want to re-invent the wheel if someone else out there has research on the subject. I have not looked at longevity of marriage (or unofficial or unsanctioned marriage, like those of Oprah Winfrey or Brad Pitt) - I even have a copy of the Astrodatabank, but don't have the time to devote to research. The ages at which all the heliacal phenomena of the 6 planets occur (by secondary progression) seem to be dominated by events normally ascribed to that planet. For those who have Mr. Kolev's program, this is something well worth looking into, IMHO.

Roy

[Rumen_Kolev]

Indeed Roy !

They were watching the Heliacal Phases (the Real ones) on the Birthday of the Native (the Babylonian Birthday).
Here is one article that proves it from Journal for History of Astronomy (JHA), May 2001, volume XXXii:

Babylonian_Horoscope_MLC_1870.jpg (250.7 KiB) Viewed 1378 times

And there is one thing more:
The Greeks computed their Solar the same way as the Babylonians computed their Birthday Day !
Id est, the Greeks used the Babylonian Calendar to compute their Birthday ( h geniathlikh hmera ) !!
Is this not something ?!!

Indeed a book on the heliacal phases may soon be published. The author will use the Real Heliacal Phases there (as computed by my algorithm which I hold for very reliable).

[Robert_Schmidt]

Welcome to the Hellenistic forum, Mr. Kirkland.

I am gratified that you have some chart support for the +-7 portion interval from 15, although as we all know that "proves" nothing as yet. I am beginning to work more with secondary progressions within the Hellenistic framework and have noted some similar things as well.

By the way, the Hellenistic astrologers also work with a standardized interval of 120 portions for stations, again with an interval of +-7 days. You might see something there as well.

[Roy_Kirkland]

And thanks for the invitation Mr. Schmidt. I have a burning question unrelated to heliacal phenomena - should I post it here or start a new topic? It is about time lord procedures, and specifically about "annual" profections. Since I have a moment to write it out, I'll do it here - please move it at will.

I'm puzzled by the statement in Valens, (old Hindsight translation series) Book IV chapter 16 of the Anthology: in the 6th paragraph, it says:

it is necessary to examine the action of each nativity, whether it has its operation from Hermes or Ares. . .

- what does he mean by "has its operation from" - does he mean the Hermes or Ares is Kurios, the domicile lord of the Horoskopos, the Oiskedespotes, lord of the sect light, the active time lord (and if so, by which method)?

I would think that since the helm, from which the ship is steered, might be where it has its 'operation' from, but that may be a cultural prejudice because the captain is almost always at the helm of modern ships (although he is rarely the helmsman). This is what makes me think that the sense of the word 'operation' may mean the material/physical control of the chart - but again, the captain, wherever he/she may be on the ship, would be the decision maker, in which case the helm could be subservient to the captain, and of course, the Oiskedespotes could be strong enough to boss the captain around - etc. It all hinges, to me, on the meaning of 'operation' in this context, and whether Valens is referring to a sort of overall 'operation', or 'operation' limited to a particular topic or time-period.

Thanks -

[Robert_Schmidt]

Good to see you here, Mr. Kirkland,

I will get to your question as soon as I can and post a response under the Miscellaneous Qestions topic.

Robert Schmidt