Examining Charts with Tropical and Sidereal Zodaics

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

IN respect to the name Vedic, yes, it is a new name for hindu astrology. But Vedic simply means true. To know the veda is not to know about Siva, but to know the Truth. So while the originator of that name chose it due to his belief of astrology originating in India, I use it because it is true astrology that I am after, werever it comes from. The legend of the Surya Siddhanta, in fact, claims astrology to have originated around 6000 BC on a land mass off the coast of africa, not all that far from Egypt. The surya siddhanta makes mention of other ancient cities that are no more, one of these, the most importnat one, Yamakoti at the place it is supposed to be, there are huge ruins under the ocean. Yamakoti is at 165 E46 0N. This city, named the bells of Yama, Yama being the deity ruling of time, supossedly marked the ancient prime meridian. As Hindu culture declined, the Indians moves the prime meridian 90 degrees west to the center of India, effectively making India the center of the world when before it was Yamakoti. Then when alexander the great invaded India, many astrologers started using longitude of Alexandria as the prime meridian!

ERnst

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Hello Therese, while I have not seen this supposed sidereal charts, I have heard of them and I have also heard that they are not really sidereal. Where can I see them?
Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Hi Ernst,

On my website are some sidereal degree positions from early horoscopes compared to the tropical.
http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/arochberg.htm

There is also an article on how the 30 degree signs were measured in Mesopotamia. ("The Zodiac in Mesopotamia") http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

The horoscopes are currently discussed in:

(1) The Rochberg text mentioned in the link above (1998)

(2) GREEK HOROSCOPES by O. Neugebauer and Van Hoesen (1987)

(3) Volumes of Vettius Valens' THE ANTHOLOGY published by The Golden Hind Press (Project Hindsight) in the 90s.

(4) There might be other chart examples in other Project Hindsight translations. I don't remember if there are other examples.

I believe the Valens volumes are now available again. These are small paperback editions usually under 100 pages. These were translated by Robert Schmidt and edited by Robert Hand. Robert Hand asks in one of the prefaces what zodiac Valens was using, but Neugebauer has shown that it was sidereal. Valens was a younger contemporary of Ptolemy. 2nd century C.E. Also Kellerstom's graph shows the use of the sidereal zodiac in Valens' charts. (I gave that link in an earlier post.)

Blessings,
Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

In respect to the babylonian tables. As far as I am aware the babylonians did not use the names aries, taurus etc or any babylonian words that carry the same meaning. Mul Apin does not do so and in fact mentions more than 12, I believe it is 18 or so stars in the path of the Moon. People have taken these 18 and tried to make a claim that they are the 12 sun signs. I would want to see the actual tablets in a scholarly translation not something twisted to fit by an astrologer - which is always the cases that I have come across. The Babylonians stars were the path of the MOON, just like the hindu nakshatras. Then they had 12 SOLAR months that were solar lunar months determined by the equinoxes, thus 12 tropical months. So jsut like the indians, they had a tropical cycle and a steller/sidereal cycle, the tropical being the path of the Sun and the stellar being the path of the Moon. WHy is that so? Because you can see the stars when the moon is out but you can never see what star the sun is in, as stars are only visible at night. YOu can, however, see the sun in respect to the equinoxes and soltices on account of the sun rising more in the north or south and the legnth of the days.

Anyway, please post some charts or make a comment on how the charts I have posted could ever hope to stand up sidereally? The proof is in what works replicably and statistically and the old texts that are available have to many errors to solve the case - or else it would ahve been solved long ago. However, the truth we are looking for was around before texts were written, which is why they all suffer from errors. Who in thier right minds will take a text that has planetary positions that are 4 degrees off as gospel truth? it is obvious that those people had deficits in thier astronomy. We need to find out what works. The simple technique I used in the last exampe I showed to one person, he tried it on charts in his data base and found 70% results for tropical zodiac and only 30% resutls for his sidereal zodiac, he now uses tropical zodiac. Please try these things on charts you have and see what works statistically better.

Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Ernst, you can't get much more scholarly than Pingree, Neugebauer and Rochberg, none of whom were astrologers. They have made the translation of words for signs, and I simply moved them into the tables as they appeared in the text. Believe me, they know what they are talking about. In Mesopotamia the division of the zodiac into 12 thirty degree signs followed the earlier 18 stars (constellations) in the path of the Moon. Yes, these scholars knew that Aries was "The Hired Man." Unless you've seen these scholarly texts, it's difficult to have a fair perspective.

Among scholars and astrological students who have studied this, there's no debate about the Mesopotamian zodiac, but you seem to be questioning this. But I think it's time to put this topic to sleep. The references are there if anyone is interested in looking into the early zodiac question.

So it's best to return to today's examples. As they say in India, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

I am sorry, but that is where I think they are wrong. The 18 paths of the moon did not become the 12 signs. I have those texts here. I have studied pinagree and though scholarly, I can not agree with all his ideas, and many scholars do not. They had thier moon stars and their 12 sun signs and then people got these confused. Please post some charts or respond to the charts that I have posted.
Ernst

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

Also, these sholars did not KNOW that aries was teh hired man, they assumed it was when in fact a ram is a completely different thing than a hired man. A few of the stellar paths of the Moon did have the same meanings as the zodiac signs, but the MAJORITY did not - based on a few, they assumed much.
Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Ernst, Solar Fire 5.1 is giving me a tropical ascendant of 22 Libra 53 and a sidereal ascendant of 29 Virgo for the woman born April 24, 1976 at 17:59 IST in Jaipur, India.

Has anyone else on this forum calculated this chart?

Therese

[Ernst_Wilhelm]

I am sorry, I made a type, birth time is 19:59, 7:59 PM

Ernst

[Therese_Hamilton]

Ernst or anyone else,

Would you like to test your theories on this chart? Suppose a client called you and gave this birth data. Would you have any preliminary thoughts about the chart? The man's interests? Work or professional life? Anything especially notable about the chart in any area? Ernst, you might want to delineate his appearance? Sun, Moon and ascendant all in one sign.

Male
April 23, 1974
7:11 a.m. PDT
Oakland, California