Where do we stand on coming regulation of all schools

[Carol_Tebbs]

Hello fellow astrologers interested in quality education in our community.

Much talk is afoot in several of our organizations through their e-zines, newsletters and journalsand schools about certification. Indeed, the ISAR E-zine has had a lively exchange of diverse opinions on te topic lately, and Lee Lehman has an article giving the background of the differing points of view on astrology education and the realities of current legislation in the pipeline that may take any choice in the matter out of our hands. With Pluto now in Capricorn, what else could we expect? I invite your thought on the matter, and particularly, is this looming regulation (authorization, accreditation and certification) just a US phenomenon, or is it world-wide?

Carol Tebbs, Kepler College Vice-president of Assessment

[Gary_Caton]

Lee Lehman has an article giving the background of the differing points of view on astrology education and the realities of current legislation in the pipeline that may take any choice in the matter out of our hands.
Carol Tebbs, Kepler College Vice-president of Assessment

please explain

my personal opinion is that since there is no demonstrable "proof" of astrology it remains under the realm of belief

the government cannot regulate your beliefs

for instance, you cannot force people to pledge the flag or be "couriers for idealogical messages"

that is coerced speech which is protected by the US Constitution

The government cannot stop Christians from saying and teaching that The Bible is the literal word of God

and yet ISAR thinks they can keep people from claiming knowledge of past lives from the chart?

how is that any different from believing or preaching "the word of god?"

there seems to be a presupposition that some degrees (often not even in the same field) and/or some illusions of hierarchical authority grant people the right to assume they know what constitutes the correct knowledge someone needs to be an astrologer. In fact the astrological knowledge base is extremely fragmented and every astrology system ever known has been highly culturally dependent. Furthermore, there are no studies I know of which examine what it is about an astrology consult which may be helpful.

So in the end all the degrees in the world are irrelevant. If we do not even know how or why or even when astrology works, then how can we assume to know how to regulate it??????

if a bunch of people think they can claim to know what is right for everyone and push their beliefs on everyone then these issues need to be taken to the high courts and i sincerely hope that is what will happen

[Sam_Geppi]

"the realities of current legislation in the pipeline that may take any choice in the matter out of our hands. "

What legislation?

By the way, I do think astrology can be (and has been) proven, just as legitimately as other "real" sceinces'' - but that would take a lot to explain right now and i am a bit pressed.

Thanks,
Sam Geppi

[Ray_Murphy]

Carol_Tebbs wrote: Lee Lehman has an article giving the background of the differing points of view on astrology education and the realities of current legislation in the pipeline that may take any choice in the matter out of our hands.

Sam_Geppi wrote:
please explain

my personal opinion is that since there is no demonstrable "proof" of astrology it remains under the realm of belief
the government cannot regulate your beliefs

The general public has an expectation that people who call themselves astrologers will tell them "What astrology says" about their horoscopes, i.e. what the most up to date or accepted information is - whether that information is accurate or not, so it wouldn't hurt to differentiate via certification, between astrologers who agree to impart that information faithfully and those who don't agree to always do it.

I cannot see much credibility in any government-recognized certification for any formal teachings unless those teachings can be backed up by a huge survey of astrologers, to discover what we actually believe and use in this era. It would be easy to create such a questionnaire for an online survey. I've experimented with a small questionnaire program myself and found that the answers can be entered quite rapidly with mouse-clicks.

[Michael Erlewine]

I am responding to Carol Tebb’s call for discussion on astrology and education. I agree with her that we need to have some real dialog on education and astrology, astrology and certification, teaching methods, and much else. Since I tend to be critical in some of my opinions, I want to point out that my criticisms are not to be taken as those of an outsider. There are few issues in my life more important to me than matters of education. I have tried to do my part by creating and maintaining the “Heart Center Library,” what may well be the largest astrological library in this country or perhaps the world.

In addition I taught astrology classes for many years, ran my own school of astrology (with diplomas) and even now have an 1100 page (2 volume) course on astrology in paperback on Amazon.com. In fairness, I should also should point out that I have not personally had much experience with formal education, since I never graduated from high school and pretty much hated being in school every day up to that point. I also am more or less an old hippie, having done home birth, home educated most of my children, and am into preventative and alternative medicine. So be warned.

Education is such an important issue, especially for astrology, where there is so much diversity of opinion on what astrology is and does. And there are different ways to learn, and not all of us can grasp abstract logic. I happen to be a ‘hands-on’ type in that I usually need some practical real-life experience in order to understand much of anything, some kind of touchstone so that I can feel and get the sense of something.

To give you a sad example: I had to take Algebra One three times because it was way too abstract for me, but I got all A’s in Geometry. They finally passed me in algebra just to get me out of the class. And as awful as that was, it does not make me a total dummy, just clueless in certain areas. I could not wait to get out of school and into the real world to experience life for myself, a life without instructors or guides. I like guiding and teaching myself.

So I have registered here my general skepticism when it comes to education. I have looked at various astrological courses and certification attempts, and so on, and, while supportive of these in principle, I have never been that convinced that we have quite the right approach or mix. But, in all fairness, I have not much liked what I have seen in society’s conventional academic scene, such as the politics and the way professors treat one another, and so on. Their behavior is nothing to emulate. The behavior of lawyers, doctors, and other well-respected professions have not much endeared themselves to me either, so I remain skeptical (and a little cynical) to some degree as to what formal education can provide.

If academic professors can’t manage to take the high road, how can we expect astrologers to be much different if we can manage to join them? Astrologers are no saints either, and they are underpaid or almost not paid at all. As for credentials, experience, approaches, etc., we are all over the board and it is almost hopeless to try to create one path or test that will suit all of what we collectively are.

I have written elsewhere and ad nauseam how I cannot in good faith accept that astrology can predict empirical things like the stock market, especially when there is no sign of this, which leaves astrology, in my experience, as a kind of shamanic or spiritual discipline. I do believe that astrologers, at least of the counseling variety, are to some marked degree acting the role of shamans in modern society.

As you see, I already have excluded myself from a good section of the astrological field by not being (at least myself) able to predict anything practical (like make money in the stock market) and by proclaiming that astrology for me is a shamanic journey about knowing myself and my work in this life, and perhaps helping others to do the same.

Kepler College

I do have high hopes for Kepler College, but must say that I am disappointed (and somewhat embarrassed) to see us parading around in cap and gowns and declaring that anyone without a college degree (or whatever) cannot teach at Kepler College. It sends the same message that too much of modern society already broadcasts, something to the effect of ‘Please help us build the railroad, but you won’t be on the train.” On the personal level, since I never got out of high school, I guess I won’t be teaching at Kepler College anytime soon. Many other astrologers I have spoken with feel the same way.

This is not meant to discourage the Kepler folks, but only to offer sincere criticism and to say: look to your roots, people! I have never wanted astrologers to become like doctors and lawyers anyway. What I hoped for was that we would someday be respected and attain a reasonable social status for being just what we now are, spiritual guides and counselors - just like priests and ministers, but secular.

Yes, I am for losing some of the astrology hokum, but I vote to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let’s face it: astrologers are an eclectic group. I was at the UAC convention at Denver in May of 2008, and I can assure you that it was not all black coat and tie - far from it. So I am not looking to throw all of those astrologers who use what I think are ridiculous techniques out of the club and band the rest of us together. Forget about that plan.

This idea that we can somehow separate astrology (and a select group of astrologers) from the great unwashed by clinging only to those qualities that society finds acceptable is not a direction I can respect. How do we take what I consider a spiritual discipline and measure it by meters and feet? Who is going to decide which astrologers get on the Ark of respectability and which are left behind? I can’t imagine that working and it would only imitate what we already have in society, a division between the ‘haves” and the “have nots.” This type of accreditation would not stop the “have nots” astrologers from practicing.

So while astrology’s efforts to pander to or fit in with society don’t intrigue me all that much, I would welcome efforts to better organize the whole bunch of us, warts and all. The UAC conference was well organized, but I came away with the impression (which was pure déjà vu) that as a group we are still so underpaid that we have to sell ourselves every which way we can just to survive. This is indeed embarrassing to me and somewhat sad.

On the one hand some astrologers are suggesting we try to pull ourselves up by the proverbial bootstraps so that we can conform and appear like the rest of society and be paid like them, while on the other hand we lack (as a group) the money, formal training, perhaps the discipline, and most of all (I believe) the ‘heart’ or desire to pass for conventional. We have been rogue for a long time.

It appears to me that we don’t really as a group want to be all that conventional. You might say that a little money and respect would make us more conventional, but I would respond: I am not sure that is all that attractive a goal for us, although we could use the money.

The fact is, folks, we are very unconventional! Let’s accept ourselves just as we are and make our eclecticism a feature rather than a liability. I have no interest in wearing a suit and tie ever again. I can see from UAC that we are indeed a wild and crazy bunch and I for one am glad about that.


NCGR and Other Courses

I have examined the courses and requirements of the NCGR education and certification and it all looks good. I am all for learning and teaching astrology, but I am not so keen on testing and certifying anyone based just on pencil and paper alone, mainly because I am not clear about how this can be done, except in a very dry, formal, and technical way. Astrology is for me primarily a spiritual discipline and I have not seen the test yet that can measure that. We have not even tried to do that.

I would welcome adding courses, etc. that would teach counseling, shamanistic approaches, meditation, mind training, esoteric astrology, and any and all of the spiritual knowledge that also is required to make up a good astrologer. We can’t test it, but we can share and promote it. This is a direction I would like to see education going in. Instead of mimicking traditional colleges (and yes I understand the low-hanging fruit of having accreditation), I would like to see a curriculum that more mirrors what astrologers actually do, which I believe is, as mentioned, primarily shamanic. Most astrologers counsel. Period. Those that do not are a small minority in my experience.

So, if we want a college, let it be as much a college of the spirit as of the current so-called testable techniques. Why not let education be a mirror of ‘who’ and what we actually are. Now that is something I could get into. And let us not forbid those of us who don’t have enough formal degrees (like myself) from helping with the teaching and mentoring. How foolish to waste any one of us, if we want to and can help.

Astrologer Lee Lehman has written an article titled “A lot has happened while you have been asleep… Education and Professionalism in the Age of Pluto in Capricorn.” It will appear in the next ISAR journal and is a good read.

In that she suggests (I don’t know if this is her personal opinion) that instead of trying to gain accreditation, we might better position astrology as a craft or art. I feel this is an excellent suggestion and one that would not require us to contort ourselves in trying to fit in. It also would better accommodate our natural spiritual or shamanic side, so the technical part of astrology and the shamanic part could co-exist and be promoted together.

I would like us to be accepted and come into our own for who we are and have always been, I have no interest to somehow follow the dictates of society and just go along in order to fit in. Astrologers have something very special to bring to society. I know that and you know that. I don’t want that to be diminished in exchange for respectability and acceptance. I am reminded of a wonderful scene someone described to me.

It was early evening on a farm, and across the lawn marched three cats walking step-by-step, with tails raised, in a single line. And following right behind the three cats was one skunk, walking right in line after them, and trying to act as much like a cat as could be. I am not saying that astrologers are the skunk in the line of cats, but I do believe that whatever we are, we probably will never fit in by trying to just go along to get along.

For myself, I want to do the best I can technically, but much more important to me is to protect, share, and provide a future for the spiritual or shamanic side of astrology. For me, that is the heart and soul of our field. We have been bending over backward to protect the outer or testable areas of astrology. I suggest we do the same kind of bending to share and preserve the spiritual core of astrology. Unfortunately, I don’t see this happening… enough. Our spiritual core is being taken for granted or assumed. I love the old saying “It goes without saying,” but I have to add “or you can say it again,” and in this case I feel we have to say it again and remind ourselves of our shamanic function. We cannot afford to lose that. Astrology is, for me at least, always a sacred portal to learning what the cosmos is trying to tell me and I value that.

I apologize for the length of this entry. I know there is great disagreement on many of these issues, and respectfully offer my personal opinions only to get a dialog started here.

[Ray_Murphy]

I have no idea what the large well known schools are teaching, but it would be good if they were producing some very concise material that gives a fairly accurate outline of astrology that could be used and quoted by the general public and the media.

Any given school's statements about various facets of astrology wouldn't of course be the final answers, nor could the schools be said to legitimately represent astrologers, but at least their statements would be "out there" and open to challenge.

For example if CNN and NBC reported that Kepler College says "Astrologers cannot predict anything with certainty" then the general public would begin to see what they were dealing with.

[Ray_Murphy]

Michael wrote:

I have written elsewhere and ad nauseam how I cannot in good faith accept that astrology can predict empirical things like the stock market, especially when there is no sign of this, which leaves astrology, in my experience, as a kind of shamanic or spiritual discipline. I do believe that astrologers, at least of the counseling variety, are to some marked degree acting the role of shamans in modern society.

Astrologers collectively have never said that we could predict stock market trends. As astonishing as it may seem, astrologers (collectively) or in large groups have never made any specific claim about anything. This is why we have never had anything to test or quote, and why all of the skeptics' ridicule of "astrology's claims" has been unfounded. The imagined astrological claims that they "debunked" don't exist.

Even when skeptics gleefully claimed that they had debunked individual astrologers' specific claims (and therefore ALL of astrology) they didn't in reality debunk anything - even though the astrologers' personal claims were unambiguous. It is simply not true to say that some claim has been debunked because an experiment failed one test. To do so, would be like testing aspirin and finding that it didn't cure some of the subjects' headaches.

Now while I know that astrologers are not taught how to predict stock market trends, and that no one has a good track record for doing it with astrology, it seems quite apparent that computer programs can easily predict transitory trends that exist purely by chance for short periods of time. I found that it's the same with lotteries - trends come and go, and if you quickly bet on a transitory trend before it disappears it's not hard to win, but it's got nothing to do with astrology. It looks like we can use anything at all to spot chance trends like that.

Notwithstanding all of the above, I think that astrology can be used to predict some stock market trends, but we haven't used the best methods for doing it yet - partly because too many things have been analysed in the same basket, instead of isolating companies and various markets and seeing which ones are responsive to certain transits.

[Gary_Caton]

Astrologer Lee Lehman has written an article titled “A lot has happened while you have been asleep… Education and Professionalism in the Age of Pluto in Capricorn.” It will appear in the next ISAR journal and is a good read.

In that she suggests (I don’t know if this is her personal opinion) that instead of trying to gain accreditation, we might better position astrology as a craft or art. I feel this is an excellent suggestion and one that would not require us to contort ourselves in trying to fit in. It also would better accommodate our natural spiritual or shamanic side, so the technical part of astrology and the shamanic part could co-exist and be promoted together.

Wow, that is unexpected... -but welcome! That is what I have always said. Astrology is a language and we are storytellers or artists (and yes Shaman)

I would like us to be accepted and come into our own for who we are and have always been, I have no interest to somehow follow the dictates of society and just go along in order to fit in. Astrologers have something very special to bring to society. I know that and you know that. I don’t want that to be diminished in exchange for respectability and acceptance. I am reminded of a wonderful scene someone described to me.

It was early evening on a farm, and across the lawn marched three cats walking step-by-step, with tails raised, in a single line. And following right behind the three cats was one skunk, walking right in line after them, and trying to act as much like a cat as could be. I am not saying that astrologers are the skunk in the line of cats, but I do believe that whatever we are, we probably will never fit in by trying to just go along to get along.

LOL, that story is hilarious! I couldn't agree more. And here's the kicker -the Age of Science may be on the way out! So why would we want to be good little modernists when the post-modern age is just dawning and who knows what it will bring? Like Roy Gillette said in his recent TMA article -Pluto in Capricorn saw Luther change the whole game. So, even if we could get acceptance or respectability from the current dominant paradigm sometime in the near future -it is quite possible that it is dying -and so we may have sold our souls for nothing and we'll be left in our unwieldy cap and gown when we really need more functional attire and with a Diploma that is not worth much but as kindling!

The USA was born when the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions mutated to the fire element (the landing at Jamestown). Then we became a nation when the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions mutated to the earth element and a modern industrial nation during that earth period . What will the coming mutation to the air element bring? Will all the earthy credentials in the world even matter anymore?

Somehow, I think that you will be judged not by your daring (fire) or credentials (earth) but in your ability to fill a particular social role (air). The social role that we fill is as counselors, storytellers, healers and shaman. These people have always been judged by what the people say of them -by their reputation rather than "credentials." Credentials may get you an audition -but then you have to deliver! On the other hand, with the proper reputation -no audition or credentials are needed.
Reputations are born of results -and i dont mean scientific studies -I mean do you make people feel better? That is the question. Can you make people feel better? Can you guide them back into harmony with their own essence? Can you help them remember that which is their birthright? -that which no one can teach them, but which they only need to recall -to uncover from beneath the heap of expectations that everyone else has thrown on them?

My sense is that in the post-modern era of jupiter-saturn conjunctions in the air element that men like Jeff Green will not be so easily demonized by some because the fruits of their work will speak for themselves.

Jesus of Nazareth is said to have given a "Sermon on the Mount" where he gave guidance on how to judge a true prophet from a false one. He said, simply: Judge them by their fruits.

Matthew 7:15 - 23 "You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.”

So, I think it will be interesting to see where the next ground-shaking development in astrology will come from -will it be from the academics -or from someone like Jeff Green again. In terms of fruit, I don't think there has been anything remotely close to the popular appeal of Green's work in some time -but I have a feeling it is coming.

[Lee_Lehman]

I do have high hopes for Kepler College, but must say that I am disappointed (and somewhat embarrassed) to see us parading around in cap and gowns and declaring that anyone without a college degree (or whatever) cannot teach at Kepler College. It sends the same message that too much of modern society already broadcasts, something to the effect of ‘Please help us build the railroad, but you won’t be on the train.” On the personal level, since I never got out of high school, I guess I won’t be teaching at Kepler College anytime soon. Many other astrologers I have spoken with feel the same way.

This is not meant to discourage the Kepler folks, but only to offer sincere criticism and to say: look to your roots, people! I have never wanted astrologers to become like doctors and lawyers anyway. What I hoped for was that we would someday be respected and attain a reasonable social status for being just what we now are, spiritual guides and counselors - just like priests and ministers, but secular.

First, I would point out that it isn't the Kepler College faculty or administration that says that you can't teach at Kepler without an academic degree - it's the the Higher Education Coordinating Board of the State of Washington, which authorizes Kepler to give degrees in the first place. For your information, Michael, ALL authorized and accredited colleges in the USA have that same restriction. Sorry, but that's how it works.

I absolutely get that you haven't wanted astrologers to be like doctors or lawyers. And if you don't, then you have no use for Kepler College. But I would point out that AFA, NCGR and ISAR have spent a lot of breath and time on the topic of "professionalism." That's where the issue gets sticky.

What I was pointing out in that article is that you would be hard pressed to find a "profession" that doesn't rely on academic education as the starting point towards its licensing and certification.

Personally, I have no problem if the astrological community were to collectively decide we are a trade, and did everything it could to become the best trade we could be. As such, mentoring and other forms of education that are informal are extremely affective methods to teach the next generation and pass on practical knowledge.

But what I see is that several of the astrological organizations, by going down the path of professionalism as their goal, have tried to have their cake and eat it too. You can no longer be professional and not have academic education, and yet all of the organizations set up professional certifications and think that this will work with informal educational structures. Who are they kidding?

Let me be clear. I think there's lots of great astrological education out there that is not academically based, and the fact that something is being taught in a college or university does not make it good, useful or right. So I am not dissing what anybody is doing. I am simply saying: talk to a lawyer about the "profession" of astrology, and if you tell them how our educational and certification programs actually operate, they will laugh at you!

Michael, the fact that you may not be interested in astrologers becoming like lawyers is perfectly fine. I support your right to your opinion. But I would ask: why shouldn't astrologers who want to be like doctors and lawyers? Are you are saying that your educational choices and aptitudes should rule what future astrologers should or can be?

I believe in the big tent, not the little one. But this sniping at Kepler is only going to accomplish one thing: destroying future opportunities for new astrologers.

[Michael Erlewine]

Dear Lee,

I was singing along pretty well with you until I reached the part where you personify me as “sniping at Kepler,” at which time it seemed to me that sniping was not my intention. I have championed education, written my own astrology courses, taught them for years, and been curator of what is probably the largest astrology library open to scholars in the country (if not the world) for the last 20 years or so, etc. So education is not something that I do not support.

My statement reads as written and was intended to be respectful, but it does express my personal disappointment with rules (no matter where, how, and why they come) that separate rather than unite astrologers, rules that do not allow folks like me, who have devoted much of their lives to astrology, to be invited teachers, etc. It is simple. We all want to “Be in that number, when the saints come marchin’ in,” not just a few of us.

If you find it offensive that I don’t feel caps and gowns by themselves make an astrologer, I am sorry for that. Perhaps I did overstate that a tad.

My favorite quote is “A rising tide raises all boats,” and I don’t see all the boats being raised here. But this is just what ACTastrology.com is here for, to have lively and animated discussions. So please persuade me.

I feel I have raised a good question here, one that many astrologers that I have spoken with would like to see answered. There must be ways that the rest of the astrologers without academic degrees can also be included to lecture and teach at Kepler, while meeting the demands of the laws you speak of. To steal a quote from the movie ‘Jerry Mcguire’, “Show me the ways!” Perhaps you can point out how the rest of us could legally be included.