Research Studies: Tropical vs. Sidereal & Related

[Therese_Hamilton]

I have the book by Gavin White. It is a good free write.
He has compiled a lot of info from the secondary literature. He gives no references though. Impossible for the non-professional to check him.

Yes, a major problem with the book, and very frustrating for readers. I suppose he considered references too much trouble. One has only to read academic texts to see how time consuming references and footnotes can be.

However, we should talk concrete.
On page 61 Gavin says that 'the Bow star to kill and rob' is a line from the Creation Epic. But where?
There is one line, V 25, that talks about kill and rob, but there is no Bow star there.
Here Gavin must be wrong.
Then down in the page he quotes an omen about the Bow star in the halo of the Moon bringing rage and robberies.
This is taken from Hunger 'Astrological Reports...' 1992 and is correct.

So there is no way of non-professionals knowing what is correct and what is "maybe correct." This is sad because Gavin White obviously has great love and enthusiasm for his subject, and illustrated the book himself.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Can anyone submit data that, using e. g. Swiss or more accurate ephemerides, at any time in history the fixed fiducial stars Aldebaran, Regulus, Spica, Antares and Fomalhaut ever exhibited the exact ecliptical distances from each other implied by their 'ancient Babylonian' positions, e. g. Aldebaran 15 Bull, Regulus 5 Lion, Spica 29 Maiden, etc.?

This is not relevant to the discussion. Rumen Kolev is exploring and studying ancient texts to determine the precise zodiac used in Mesopotamia according to the texts. This isn't a question of astronomy. This is a historical question.

Today's astrologers have the task of determining which of several sidereal zodiacs might give the best results. This is tedius work and must involve experimentation with micro zodiacs as used in India.

We do not know the exact rate of precession thousands of years ago. We are not sure of other variables. Thus, we can't compare Mesopotamian star longitudes (to the minute or second) to today's positions or longitudes far in the future. Walter Cruttenden has discussed possible varying precession rates in his book Lost Star of Myth and Time in relation to the Indian yuga cycle.

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Good morning dear Ms Hamilton,

This ... tedius work ... must involve experimentation with micro zodiacs as used in India.

If "relevant" means limited to historic-academic discussions of ancient Mesopotamian astrology, if possible within its own context, perhaps i should agree. If, however, "relevant" concerns astrological practice here and how, may i disagree?

With a standard deviation of 3 degrees in respect of underlying data, why do you think experimentation with Indian micro zodiacs is a "must" current avenue of research, please? As even with 1/12th devisions of signs, 2.5 degrees each, the positions are more likely than not incorrect, it would seem plausible that bounds, five (or seven) per sign are the first division of signs large enough to expect the underlying positions to, more often than not, be correct.

Would you like another tidbit of pesky data? Alrisha (Alpha Piscium) is well into the 'sidereal' (sic!) sign of Aries with the most widely used precession factors, whilst Beta Piscium, unless i have midread the star maps, is even further into the preceeding 'sidereal' sign of Aquarius. To me, the word 'sidereal' seems appropriate for a fixed zodiac if it means that the calculations of signs are based on fixed star position(s) rather than on an equinox. By simple observation and definition, there appears to be no fixed zodiac, lunar or solar, of equal sign lengths that places each Alpha Star into the sign named after it of its constellation.

Here once again, the human mind's anxious need of symmetry would like to prevail over Mother Nature's Primordial Chaos.

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Therese_Hamilton]

Mr. Meyers,

To continue with this discussion seems rather pointless because you don't seem to understand how astrology works as it's presently used by astrologers. If I can find the time I'll post an example of micro-zodiac research using the navamsa chart. I have also tested the terms (bounds) in the sidereal zodiac.

The stars of the constellations are indeed used by astrologers depending on where they fall in the signs of the zodiac the astrologer happens to be using.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

Rumen, somewhere on the Hellenistic section of the ACT forum there was some discussion of terms (which Robert Schmidt calls "confines.") I cannot find those posts. Could you possibly post the sets of terms from the Babylonian tablets that were discussed in the article by Jones and Steele? (Here on this topic or with the discussion on confines, in which case please give the link if you can find it....)

I have the article, but can't really make out the details from the tablet translations. I would like to make a table of terms to compare with the standard "Egyptian" set of terms.

Thank you....if you have the time.

Therese Hamilton

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Good morning dear Ms Hamilton,

Do you feel obligated to indulge in polemics due to lack of appropriate explanations?

Who has appointed you or anyone else to define 'what is astrology' and to determine 'ex cathedra' who understands it and who does not?
What are your credentials and criteria for such status, definitions and determinations, please?

You are certainly aware that there are at least dozens of astrological schools, many of which claim to posess the 'one true and accurate astrology'.

Yours truly's criteria for astrological schools are e. g.:

* attempt to be coherent within ones own framework
* achievement of a high degree of relative coherence
* recognition of astronomic phenomena as bases of astrology
* recognition of statistics as a branch of mathematics applicable to astrology
* coherent application, including symbolic, of analogies
* open-mindedness

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Rumen_Kolev]

Yes, Therese,

You must have all books on Mesopotamia and must have read them and remember them IN ORDER to be able to check the book by Gavin White.
He should add detailed references in any future edition.

Gavin draws very rich from immense secondary literature.
On one topic (constellation Serpent, e.g.) he puts together the views of several scholars.
But, because different authors have different views and translations, the book of Gavin becomes a compilation of views of many different authors.
The whole picture may be incoherent.
On page 184 discussing the constellation Serpent connected with the divinity NIN gish.ZID.DA, Gavin gives the translation of the name as:
'the lord of the good tree'.
Gavin takes this from Jeremy Black and Anthony Green, very well known professors and scholars.
In their book 'Gods, Demons and ...' page 138 they translate the name NIN gish.ZID.DA as 'Lord of the Good Tree'.

This is very very free translation and I would say inexact. It would be better as 'Lord of the True Tree'.
ZID (kiinum) means 'true', 'fair', 'just'. It does not mean 'good'.

However, guess what?
There is one even better translation of NIN gish.ZID.DA.
Lord of the Tree of Life!
ZID (napishtu) means 'life', 'breath'.

That this is correct is proven by many places which so find their explanation. Why NIN gish.ZID.DA guards the door to the highest heaven in shape of a snake and who stole (back) from Gilgamesh the plant of life. And where is that plant of life, too.

If I was living in the UK where Gavin resides, I'd take the excellent opportunity there to take classes in Sumerian and Akkadian as much as I can!
Because reading original texts in their original language is where the lake becomes an ocean. The slave- a free man!

[Therese_Hamilton]

So to read Gavin White's book we need three more books of reference notes by a scholar with a photographic memory and a very expensive collection of books and manuscripts! But the drawings are nicely done. We can enjoy the art!

[Rumen_Kolev]

Unverified.
This is the correct word for the book.
If references are added, the book will be very valuable as a reference book.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Unverified.
This is the correct word for the book.
If references are added, the book will be very valuable as a reference book.

And, Rumen, you would be one of the very few qualified to add references to the book. Perhaps because of the difficulty, Gavin White neglected references. I remember my first reaction to the book: "No references and notes?? How to know the value of the book?" I didn't buy it at first because of the lack of notes. I suppose if I were Rumen Kolev, I might have contacted Gavin White for a joint effort in incorporating the necessary notes to make the book a scholaraly reference others can use. It is a "one of a kind" book.

I have been thinking about the Babylonian zodiac, and have to agree with you and van der Waerden that (in the Babylonian view) it makes sense to place Spica only in Virgo, and primary stars of Taurus and Scorpio must be within the signs of the same name. But I hope for more verification of the Babylonian zodiac coming to light in additional tablets. With the discovery of terms which depend on exact degrees, somewhere there must be more information on the measurement of that zodiac.