What precisely do 'winds' mean?

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Greetings,

One of the basic differences between Hellenic and Mediaeval astrologies is the Aristotelian paradigm of the latter.

One reads in another thread that the Hellenic trigons were associated with the four directions and four winds and (later) with the four Stoic (not Aristotelian!) qualities / elements as follows:

Wind / Direction Quality Stoic Element Images
-------------- ------ ----------- ------
North----------Hot----Fire--------Ram, Lion, Archer
South----------Dry----Earth-------Twins, Balance, Water-Pourer
West-----------Cold---Air---------Crab, Scorpio, Fishes
East------------Wet--- Water-------Bull, Maiden, Goat-Horned

Assuming we are in the northern hemisphere, what precisely did the wind directions mean to the ancient Greeks? Today 'north wind' means on the earth's surface an air stream FROM the north blowing towards the south and so on. However, winds from the north in the northern hemisphere tend, other things being equal, to be cool, not warm as the north receives less exposure to solar heat. Winds from the south tend to be warm for the analogous reason. Winds from the east, already warmed and dried by the sun would tend, other things being equal, to be dry compared to winds from the west. Thus, the above table of attributions does not seem convincing.

Did 'north wind' in ancient Greece perhaps mean blowing towards rather than from the north? Did 'west wind' possibly mean blowing towards the west?

Who has sorted this out or can do so?

Kind regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Rumen_Kolev]

What are the sources you use ?

Look:
Antiochus in CCAG VII: 128
translated by Schmidt in his Foundations p. 102

Valens III: 4

They seem to be of different opinion though.

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Good afternoon Dr. Kolev,

My sources are the same but they seem difficult to understand on the matters of winds, directions and Stoic elements, at least for me. What is a or the coherent overview?

Are these features perhaps from Babylonian or Egyptian origins? Do the 'winds' and their qualities perhaps refer to a particular climatic zone?

There is a related discussion about trigons here at the Board. However, this is a narrower matter.

Best wishes,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

Dear Mr.Abd-Allah Meyers,

Paulus Alexandrinus gives another scheme(Intr.Matt., Ch.2.):

“It[Aries] lies <in the > zone of Persia, having been apportioned to the east wind”
“It[Taurus] lies in the zone of Babylon, apportioned to the south wind.”
“It[Gemini] lies <in the> zone of Cappadocia, apportioned to the west wind.”
“It[Cancer] lies <in the> zone of Armenia, apportioned to the north wind”.

Similarly for the other zoidions.

Same scheme we can see in Al-Qabisi(Introd.,Ch.I.16) and in William Lilly( Chr.Astr.,Ch.139.)

My sources are the same but they seem difficult to understand on the matters of winds,…

What are your sources Mr.Meyers: author, title, chapter?

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Dear Mr Kojuharov,

Some of the sources are stated by Dr Kolev, others are stated in a parallel thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=113&start=40

My question is NOT about the assignment of the directions to the Images and / or the elements, for which several permutations exist (if my math is not too rusty, of 24 possible), exempli gratia:

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PP.html#directions

but about what the underlying concept 'winds' means, if 'north wind' means blowing FROM or TO the geographical direction north or perhaps something else, if specific geographical locations with their regional climates of astrologers determined their definitions, etc.

Regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Rumen_Kolev]

The astrological Winds are coming from the real winds and their observation in ancient times connected with the belief that it is the air that carries the light of the stars id est it is the air that is the medium between man and stars. Observe also that the stars themselves take orders from above them the sphere.
However, what is known to me from Mesopotamia, is that South Wind is the wind coming from South-South-East which is a being in itself with a face and body quite fierce. This was the wind bringing pestilence. The North wind written IM.SI.SA2, which means 'the good wind' in Sumerian, was considered wind bringing health.
They thought that the winds are beings in themselves, much more mighty than man, commanded by Adad (dingir IM), "the divinity of the Wind".
They knew the month and day when the winds rose and disappeared. And they knew the character of each wind.
More useful will be for us to observe the local winds where we live.
Where I am, Varna, Bulgaria, I think 'the good wind' is the wind coming from the sea, East.
And the wind blowing from west is the same as the south one was in Mesopotamia.
Useful will be to make statistical correlation between number of health patients (with breathing (lung) and other problems) and the wind blowing in this moment.
There must be strong correlation between certain winds and the mass health in a given region.

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

what the underlying concept 'winds' means, if 'north wind' means blowing FROM or TO the geographical direction north or perhaps something else

Αncient Greeks had four winds (ανεμοι):
– the winds FROM the north, known as Boreas (βoρέας)
- the winds FROM the south, known as Notos (νόtος)
- the winds FROM the east, known as Eurus (εΰρος)
- the winds FROM the west, known as Zephyrus (ζέφυρος)

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

One reads in another thread that the Hellenic trigons were associated with the four directions and four winds and (later) with the four Stoic (not Aristotelian!) qualities / elements as follows:

Wind / Direction Quality Stoic Element Images
-------------- ------ ----------- ------
North----------Hot----Fire--------Ram, Lion, Archer
South----------Dry----Earth-------Twins, Balance, Water-Pourer
West-----------Cold---Air---------Crab, Scorpio, Fishes
East------------Wet--- Water-------Bull, Maiden, Goat-Horned

First author who gives this scheme is Geminus of Rhodes(1st Century BC).See , pls, :Geminos, Introduction to the Phenomena, Princeton University Press, 2006, Chapt.II,p.126

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Thank you very much, Mr Kojuharov, for your informative reply with an early known source. Before discussing which schema of attributions of winds and / or elements to Images we indeed should know what was meant by 'winds'. What other schema, if any, is known to you from Hellenic astrology?

Aristotle lived in the 4th century BCE, well before the appearance of Hellenic horoscopic astrology. Should we assume that its authors were conversant with Aristotle's teachings about the elements and rejected them in favour of the Stoic or perhaps another system? For which reasons?

The differences are important, e. g. Air = cold (Stoic), Air = warm and moist (Aristotelian). Mediaeval and even renaissance astrologies are clearly attached to an Aristotelian paradigm, Hellenic apparently not.

Finally and most importantly, which systems of attributions of winds, directions and elements to the Images (Signs) are best demonstrated as valid in astrological practice? The proof of the pudding is not speculating about how it might taste, but in the eating.

We perhaps tend easily to forget that practising Hellenic and Mediaeval astrologers, in contrast to modern ones, not rarely paid for mistakes with their lives.

Kind regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

Before discussing which schema of attributions of winds and / or elements to Images we indeed should know what was meant by 'winds'.

Very good survey on the thema is the following scientifical article:

Barbara Obrist "Wind Diagrams and Medieval Cosmology", Speculum, Vol. 72, No. 1 (Jan., 1997), pp. 33-84


If you have not access to this article, I can send it via e-mail.

Dimitar