a physical basis

[John_Townley]

A good summation, which I think most of us would agree upon. It would be great to discuss more about the shaman as astrologer (and vice-versa), but it’s probably best we go further with it on the forum devoted to the subject, since that forum’s two threads have been without posts for a while (only one page to our seven here) and could use the attention.

And, we might consider splitting this particular thread into subsets if there is inspiration to, as this is really about thoughts on a physical basis (or lack of it) and not the entirety of the science and astrology forum. I note Bob Schmidt has just done that (on getting to the nature of facts). Another such subset might be a further investigation of all the mistakes of individuals on both the astrology and science sides, many of which are covered in that link to Geoffrey Dean’s site, because it is quite true that little progress has been made in the last forty years or so of sporadic and usually-defensive debate, often generating more insult than inquiry. No point in repeating any more of that, as it has indeed become boring and fruitless…some fresh, from the ground up approaches really need to be suggested.

Science is not without its new approaches in general, good because things like endless refinement of string theory and the like are getting a little tedious in the same fashion. Freshly, from the pages of last week’s New Scientist, is something that astrologers might think to look upon, although the direct connection may not be immediately obvious. It’s at http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ?full=true and suggests a solid, fractal base beneath all that quantum weirdness that would again bring something like reliable structure to the microcosm, and it also resonates with the new holographic spinoff of gravity wave search linked a couple of posts ago, mostly because of the shared graininess element. Just more grist for the mill, reminders that how everything fits together, from large to small, isn’t sewed up by any means yet…take a look…

[Bruce_Scofield]

Some interesting discussions going on here since I last checked in.

There is a science of astrology (at least there should be) and there is a practice of astrology (the new role of the old shaman). I think its just that simple. You do the first and you join the scientific community and approach problems systematically, whether or not they lead to radical notions. It's not about acceptance, its about doing honest, methodological, peer-reviewed work. A scientist working on astrological problems could also be an astrologer, or not. I don't even think the physical basis or not issue is the real problem as much of science deals with energy and lots of stuff like Michael and John have mentioned that is seriously weird. The real problem is measurement.

Astrology as a shamanic/counseling practice is what most call astrology. This endeavor might concern itself with finding common ground with science and religion, but, as has been the opinion of the larger astrological community, this is a waste of time. Many say let the subject find its place in the market and let the "professionals" emerge - which is happening as we write. Legitimacy here is successful usefulness and the public will figure that out, though the market is limited by propaganda from those who hate astrology which, unfairly, slows the process down.

The larger issues of the relations and connections between science and astrology and religion, and other subjects with immense explanatory power, are for philosophers to figure out.

[Michael Erlewine]

I hear you Bruce, and am moving the ‘facts’ discussion next door, but as a last comment: I don’t feel it is as simple as science and practice – dividing by two. The real forefront is both of these and more, a continuum, leading from the known ‘hard’ facts through the legitimization of ‘soft’ facts (as supported by a consensus of soft-fact experts) to the matrix or womb from which all facts emerge. This, rather than having only one standard for grading facts – the hard end. I have pointed this out a few times here, but the fish ain't bitin'. There is no point in my simply repeating this refrain.

[Bruce_Scofield]

I understand where Michael is coming from - and what he says requires a revolution in knowledge-making. In the present, its not a case of the fish not biting - I hope for such a revolution myself but don't think I'll see it in my lifetime. What I believe I have been laying down are ways to get there using what we have to work with now, and in this sense, it is only a simple pragmatic acknowledgement of consensus reality.

[John_Townley]

I agree, Bruce. There comes a consensus, eventually, if you keep tweaking each other and find folks on all sides willing to come up with new combinations of theory, methodology, and evidence. That's what we need now, quite specifically, at least in this discussion thread.

From the current astrologer's practice point of view, however, it's too-often the results that count in any one instance, even if the theory might have led you elsewhere, as in this fun historical example http://matrixtownley.wordpress.com/2009 ... g-the-sun/ but in the end, in the preponderance of cases, it's important that the sun, the sextant, and the clock all agree with your actual position most of the time...

[David_Mastrogiovanni]

Greetings. I would like to add this post [copied from one I have elsewhere on the 'net'] to my 'Runic' theory posted above in this forums' thread.
I was watching the History Channel here in the States the other night and caught a program on the formation of the Earth.
In this program the narrator talked about how when underground water hit seams of molten lava underground it solidified those seams into 'strata' and they eventually were thrust upwards into mountains.

...underground water > Scorpio
...underground molten lava > Sagittarius
...above the Earth mountains > Capricorn

...AH! The plot thickens!

...ps, check out my thread in the 'Numbers and Astrology" sub-forum titled "The Seven and the Five" as to what developed from that theory has some scientific application/implication which you all may find of some interest.

...also, it's been my observation, and it's been pointed out to me, that as a result of this 'arrangement' of the nature of the Zodiac it is implied that the waters "Above the Earth" [Pisces], are just as influenced by the Moon as the waters "On the Earth" [Cancer]...an interesting conjecture!

[David_Mastrogiovanni]

...in support of evidence for this 'Runic Theory', I offer this post from a thread at the Sabian Forum...

By Runic Astrological theory [I've got a post of this Runic thing here at this forum], [Elements Above the Earth, On the Earth, & Below the Earth] Virgo rules Earth-Below the Earth. i.e., e.g. 'Caves' {notice the womb implication} and oil is an earth element /substance from cave like pockets. Saturn is presently in the last degrees of Virgo. Aries rules Fire-Above the Earth i.e. e.g. 'Lightning'...but also all electrical fire. As Uranus is about to enter Aries I suspect the fire and was some sort of electrical fire that got out of hand or just downright caused an explosion. [Pisces is a water sign, of course, but by Runic theory it rules Water-Above the Earth [hence 'Rain/Snow'..which without there would be no streams/rivers...which has become mistakenly identified with Piscean rulership...Cancer rules all Water-On the Earth.]
This combo of Saturn 'The Lesson Giver...the Distributor of Karma' in opposition to Uranus, "The Great Awakener...The Deliverer of Sudden Change' has caused some mayhem...that's for sure...whether it proves to have been caused by somthing 'electrical' remains to be seen...I'll certainly be following the story.
..and in added observation, as my brother, Daniel, once said to me [taught me]..."The last degree of a Sign is where all the lessons of that Sign come to bear pressure...a tough degree [the 30th] for anyone to have a Natal Planet in their birth chart" [Esp. Moon in Capricorn!]...as this event occured so close to the last degree of Virgo and Pisces simultaneously ...it certainly does make sense.

[David_Mastrogiovanni]

..well, the latest theory on the Oil platform explosion/fire is due to a bubble of methane gas...Libra represents Air Below the Earth..and Saturn was briefly in Libra [Air Below the Earth] before returning to Virgo...it keeps adding up ...

[David_Mastrogiovanni]

Here's another addition I believe shows support for my theory.

Ever since I came up with this arrangement I've been captivated by the fact that 'electricity' represented by Aries/Electrical fire/Fire Above the Earth [Lightning] is across from Virgo/Libra/Scorpio.
I became aware of the man Nikoli Tesla, and his work, in late 1971. I subsequently have read a bit on him and for awhile owned a copy of the Czech production. the movie, 'The Secret of Nikoli Tesla', which I thought was very objective as to presenting only what was reputedly seen and corroborated...out side of a few instances, such as what J.P. Morgan and Tesla discussed behind closed doors.

But, it was the depiction of the experiments that I found so fascinating ... especially what Tesla was doing in Colorado Springs. Tesla chose that area to develop his theory of producing electricy right from the earth itself ...as he demonstrated to his brother in the film... that the earth is a natural commutator...
and that Edison's Direct Current generator was an unnatural and thus in-efficient design. [also the reason I state that the current belief of negativsign followed by a positive sign is wrong. Tesla said he saw his Alternator in the Cosmos surrounding the Earth. As it stand s now the belief is that every positive sign has another positive sign for it's polarity and the same for the negative. This is not natural...it does not exist in nature. That's why it is really to be understood as half and half...like the Yin-Yang icon. That is the design of an Alternator.]
Tesla chose Colorado Springs as there were caves and springs underground. That's Virgo, Libra and Scorpio...opposite the sign Aries....electricity.

Today I found this video on youtube. It's an explanation as to the theory I have seen bandied about a bit this past year but hadn't taken the time to check it out...until today. [It's always easier for me to get the basis of an understanding of something technical from one of those ''Science 101' type vids that Freshmen in college get to watch for introductory purposes.]
This is on the belief that the great Pyramids of Egypt were electrical generators of some sort. Watch and note what is mentioned about the underground aquifers... I think most of you will catch my drift here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHrSulXPYu4&feature=related

[David_Mastrogiovanni]

I thought that it might interest a few members that follow this thread that I did come up with an application of the spectrum to the Zodiac and as to the app. I developed of musical tonality to the Zodiac...and I believe it is the solution, as it seems to be the 'missing link' as to the missing keys of 'B#' and 'E#' and the missing colour 'Violet'. [i.e. the Seventh Ray or Missing Ray] I added it to the thread, The "7 & the 5" I have in the sub-forum, 'Oracles', classification, 'Numbers and Astrology'.