First Challenge and Prize: Aspect Interpretation

[Michael Erlewine]

Aspect Interpretation Challenge

I will try to make this simple. It has to do with how we interpret any two-body aspect combination, like Mars-Jupiter, as in “Mars Trine Jupiter” or “Jupiter Trine Mars.”

Here is the challenge:

Which of the two samples below is the correct way to interpret this aspect combination and why? Or, are they both correct, in which case how, when, and where are they used?

SAMPLE INTERPRETATIONS
Which is correct:

Mars aspects to Jupiter = Drive to find a path or career
Or
Jupiter aspects to Mars = The path or way to action


Mercury aspects to Venus = Thoughts of Love or Value
Or
Venus aspects to Mercury = Love of thoughts and ideas

Use whatever planet combination you wish for an example. In other words, what do you do and why? Is it Mercury > Venus because Mercury is the faster of the two bodies or vice versa? Is one version correct for natal and the other for transit to natal or what? What is the “correct” or best way to interpret any planet combination and what do you do?

In summary, in the 360-degree aspect cycle between any two bodies, which of the two bodies is said to affect (or whatever) the other, when and why? How are we to interpret them?

I hope this is clear. If not, send me an email and I will try to clarify it.

Michael Erlewine

The prize for this ACT Challenge will be the new Win*Star 4.0 professional astrology software system for the PC from Matrix Software (read about it at AstrologySoftware.com).

[Carole_Devine]

I seldom use an aspect in isolation, but 99% of the time relate it to a natal house position or houses the planets rule. This has been a habit since the late '60's when a friend and I were studying under the Rosicrucians. She told me of twins she knew who had their Suns in different houses...one in the 7th and one in the 8th. When the ruler of the 12th (a heavy planet, but I forget which one) squared their Suns in transit, secrets came out. The one with the 8th house Sun was caught embezzling, and the one with the seventh house Sun was caught in an illicit affair with his wife's friend. I never forgot how specific and appropriate the events were for each of them. This was my first encounter with this concept, and it made a deep impression.

Except for solar arc and all progressions, I believe the slower planet acts on the faster planet--especially if it's one of the outer planets. With solar arc and progressions, I blend them equally, since these are rare encounters. One time I predicted to a divorced father that a 14 year old daughter would be leaving home... ruler of his fourth quincunx ruler of his fifth (I've found quincunx aspects to indicate some kind of separation. There were probably other indicators as well, or I wouldn't have been so specific. He didn't see how that would happen since she was so young, but at the time of partile, she did. She wanted to live with her mother in a place where there was more of a social life. It wasn't a negative reflection on the father, just a choice. It wouldn't really matter which planet was faster or which "acted on" which. However, in transits, I'd say that a slow planet transiting in aspect to a faster one, acts on the faster one. It would bring out the natal promise of the two if they are natally in aspect...i.e. if the slower planet is square the faster one in the natal chart, then whatever the aspect is, even a trine, it will bring out the natal square for resolution. The event would be about whatever houses they occupy and rule. In a transit, the slower planet lingers for such a long time, there has to be more of an impact than just a quick pass of a faster planet that is only there for days or even hours.

One reliable aspect I use to demonstrate astrology to skeptics is the square, opposition or conjunction of Mercury to their Saturn. It only lasts a day or two if it's going average speed. I write on a slip of paper, "You're very tired today.", put it in an envelope and put a date on the outside. I tell them to open the envelope on that day. It is Saturn acting on Mercury, even if Mercury is doing the transiting. If Saturn is doing the transiting, it just lasts longer and will bring out deeper issues related to the houses they occupy and rule.

I divide the planets into two groups: personal (Moon thru Jupiter -- order of speed) and generational (Saturn out to Pluto). If the aspect is between the outer planets only, I would place heavier emphasis on the houses they occupy and rule since they are not personal enough to affect one individually unless connected to houses. Aspects between the personal planets (no outer planet involved) I see as personality traits but not serious enough to be considered karmic issues. However, if the aspect is between an outer planet and a personal one, I pay careful attention to that and give it a lot of weight...again seeing the slower planet as modifying the faster planet whether it's natal or transiting.

For instance, Pluto Square Venus I'd interpret as "intense and possibly controlling or obsessive (Pluto) in personal relationships (Venus)." However, instinctively, I'd look to the houses they rule and occupy to add much more to that interpretation. If, for instance, they are connected to the fourth and third, I might say that there were power struggles with the parents and siblings. I've been doing this habitually for so long, it is very difficult to isolate a couple planets and just make a generic statement. There are so many variables involved when you consider the whole chart and other influences on that aspect.

[John_Townley]

Well, as a general rule, I use a kind of subject/predicate approach with the faster acting upon the slower (astrology is such a generalized language itself, you can often turn a chart into a diagrammed sentence). Thus…

>>Venus>Mercury = Love of thoughts and ideas<<

Would apply more if Venus were applying to (catching up with) Mercury. Venus and love are the more active principle. And
…
>>Mercury>Venus = Thoughts of love or value.<<

Would apply more if Mercury were the faster, where the thinking is the more active principle.

The inner planets are the most difficult to use that rule with, since they don’t make all the regular aspects and are heavily flooded out by too-great proximity with the Sun. And, even when they are headed toward a (very) minor aspect, they may never complete it, so all you’re looking at is changing tension (relative acceleration/deceleration) that doesn’t resolve and in fact reverses within most lifetimes by secondary progression.

But my comment -- as doctrinaire as could be -- that the faster planet always applies to the slower, as a subject or verb acts upon its object or an adjective or adverb modifies its recipient, is much easier with planets exterior to Earth:

>>Mars > Jupiter = Driven toward career<<

When Mars is direct and applying to Jupiter, this would be the favored
Or

>>Jupiter> Mars = Career of action<<

When Mars is retro and Jupiter is direct and applying to Mars, this would be favored...

But of course there is always a blend of both nevertheless, one being favored, but either being in part applicable. And, if there were other faster bodies dominating the scene (like Moon and Sun bearing down on both of them), Mars and Jupiter would themselves become a dependent clause to the larger, dominant subject and predicate. As noted in the previous post, other things like angularity might give added emphasis as to which is the more active, modifying influence, if indeed there is one...

[Deborah_Welch]

I view the slower moving planet as having more weight, generating more 'presence'. The applying or separating faster moving planet creates a subtle to sharp shift in the energy field of the slower planet. Presence is directly affected for duration per degree orb of application/separation, the eventual effect depending upon an individuals inclination to personal and group dynamics.

In the case of Mercury-Jupiter, the message is a shout out and energetic 'presence' quivers like so many so many arrows lightly striking the field. I am not as interested in Sign signification as placement of the 2 bodies within the 360 degree field/cyclical phase. Mercury in early degree application to early (or relatively early) degree phase of Jupiter, would alert me to thoughts, words and signs within personal environment that widen or constrict one's path (for instance).

Using Mars to Jupiter per example, Mars would create enough shift in the field to challenge aspects of the field even after separation - challenge to be accepted or become a sisyphus stone.

Mercury to Venus would tend to quicken whatever energetic vibrations exist within the value structure, the cyclical phase indicating 'leaps of faith' or 'wisdom mind' fortification, etc.

Perhaps I should have used your keywords, but they didn't feel comfortable (to me).
~skewed aquarian that I am.

Thanks for posing the challenge. Interesting to read approaches!

[Ed_Falis]

I view the faster planet as an agent of the slower, bearing in mind the synodic cycle involved.

[Edit]:

To clarify, I do mean "slower planet "as the outer/superior, and "faster" as the inner/inferior. So, we're talking about a phase relationship of the inner planet as agent of the outer one. This is going on constantly for all pairs, but if you want to see how the two are operating together, look at the phase relationship.

- Ed

[Francoise Moderne]

I usually consider the couple of superior planets (Mars Jupiter) in their cycle (a waxing or a waning trine), considering that the waxing position is a deliberate betterment - in the case of the trine - of the actions or will defined by Mars which become well organized and may be well applied, and the waning one is more the faculty of expressing one's will with a better confidence, all this depending upon the context: position in sign, house, near the Sun or not, retrograde or not, rapid or not, in an angle or not, other aspects etc... Depending also upon the point of view from which I am situated. For instance, if Mars is in the fifth and Jupiter in the ninth, I would say "Mars is sending a waning trine to Jupiter, the person is active for the things he or she loves and put all his - her - energies for travels or study of countries or people far from his or her own home. But considering from Jupiter, I would say "Jupiter receives a waning trine from Mars, the person is lucky in the fields of the ninth, with an open mind and the certainty of being able to handle any subject in that field."
For transits and progressions, the waxing and waning positions are more useful and much more considered by me.

As for Mercury and Venus, they don't have many aspects towards each other in a natal chart, a sextile or a semi square. I am used to consider them in their synodic cycle, and in their respective position in the day. Are they occidental ou oriental to the Sun? (Occidental is better for them), Retrograde - Mercury is very often retrograde - or swift? Are they stars of the morning or of the evening? One may be oriental to the Sun while the other is occidental, that would change the signification.
In transits or progressions, any aspect can be met, I consider also the waxing or waning position of the planet moving towards the one which stays motionless and I start from the moving planet which is the one which gives the color to the events. Mercury will give changes in the fields of Venus, either harmonious or not depending upon the aspect, Venus will give love beauty harmony in opportunities - or excess for a challenging aspect - to what Mercury signifies in the natal chart.
All these analysis are never separate from the context

[David_Monroe]

As a general rule, I interpret the faster moving planet relative to the slower moving planet, even if (using the Mars and Jupiter pairing) Mars was slowing, at a station, or even retrograding.

However, there is nothing wrong (again using Mars and Jupiter) interpreting either planet relative to the core meaning of the other. First, permit me to comment on the Mars aspecting Jupiter or Jupiter aspecting Mars statements:
** I consider the "Mars aspects to Jupiter = Drive to find a path or career" as the more appropriate statement although I might restate it differently, "Acting to take advantage of an opportunity or social contact." Of course, the aspect that exists between the two would further modify our statement. As an example, Mars opposite Jupiter would suggest "A greedy grabber."

** Of the second pair of statements, I would prefer "Mercury aspects to Venus = Thoughts of Love or Value." Again, the aspect would determine the more specific wording; the conjunction suggesting a "An expression of harmony, balance and form, 'form' suggesting graphical, arrangement, musical/sound manners of expression." The sextile aspect would suggest more of a communication nature such as writing or singing as an outreach and sharing expression, while the semi-square aspect might suggest a more critical or experimental approach which might seek to re-define 'harmony' in stronger terms.

Addressing the alternate interpretations given, but not chosen by me:
** Interpreting Jupiter in respect to Mars, the challenge noted "The path or way to action." My sense is that we need to see Jupiter as acting/bringing some form of enlargement to what Mars wishes to do ---- perhaps seeking a bully or tough sporting opponent to test one's vigor and aggressiveness against."

** Interpreting Venus aspects to Mercury (Love of thoughts and ideas), I would look at any number of expressions: "Rewriting a book or speech, repainting or re-graphing a presentation (chart, proposal illustration), comforting someone who has received bad news."

A final comment, if I may. Were a software report writer to be used to note the meanings of these pairings, I would expect the following approach: The core planet meanings would be interpreted in terms of the aspect between them. Although I use phase-relationships (which do not depend upon a classical aspect existing) such as written about by the late Marc Robertson of Seattle, I do not see report writers reverting to phase-cycle meanings when a classical aspect is not present. It is my sense that some report writer software does express a planet pairing in terms of the aspect and in relationship to the slower moving planet ---- we might see "Mars aspecting Jupiter" in a report but not "Jupiter aspecting Mars" further along in the report (this might be boring to read. My views on this should be taken with a grain of salt as I seldom use report writers even though I have several (I use them once or twice a year at most).

Dave

[Shawn Carson]

My favorite form of astrology is contest analysis, so my concerns are not of a psychological nature, but are strictly performance based. For example, "how will Eli Manning perform this Sunday as his NY Giants football team engages the Dan Diego Chargers in an NFL contest?" What i really want to know is which team has the best chances of winning this game, based mostly on the strength of their quarterback and coach's current transits to natal positions. In this case, I am looking at the transiting bodies acting upon the natal positions. If Manning is experiencing T MA in aspect to N JU, I interpret that as "aggressively seeking opportunities to score". In other words, lots of downfield passes, as opposed to a more conservative running game strategy. If T JU is in aspect to N MA, I interpret that as "success through physicality" I would expect him to take advantage of his sheer brute force by trying to wear the other team down through physical domination. In other words, I would expect him to rely on a power running game.
This type of astrology is, admittedly, very pointed and limited in scope. On the other hand, performance is very important to us all, and we all experience times when we perform better than others in all phases of our lives. Because of my strong interest in team sports, I have observed a lot of very real astrological phenomena in action, and feel more certain than ever that astrology is much more than a theoretical construct, but is a very real, observable fact.

[Deborah_Welch]

Clarification:

Mars to Jupiter. I observe the slower moving planet to have more contextual space than the faster moving planet, thus the field of influence is larger. What Jupiter represents within the theoretical chart is quickened or energized potentiating challenges within the scope of Jupiter. Here I would expect some depletion of base/sexual energy in certain other areas of the chart/life that is not directly triggered by natal or transit aspect to Jupiter.
Keyword Sentence: Sexual energy is focused and has impact through challenge of broad belief structure.
Scene: Progressive and impassioned congress(wo)man presenting healthcare plan to life long conservatives. Or. Empassioned conservatives storming the halls of congress.
In this respect Mars in the chart is affected by contact to Jupiter through increased energy in the Jupiter field and potential for an energy leak in other areas or the chart/life.

Jupiter to Mars. In this case the belief system or theoretical construct begins to push or demand attention. This may or may not be impassioned but requires work. I see it as different only in the sense that Jupiter[system or construct] demands energy/work of some kind.
Long, but pretty much my keyword sentence
Scene: Healthcare legislation demands congressional aids to fore go Holiday vacations.

If none of the above makes sense to whatever reader, allow me to say I've never found the combination of 2 planets (as juxtaposed in the examples) to have the same expression.
Both are obviously participants and whether one is more relevant than the other is not the same as whether one has more 'weight' or influence.

[David_Monroe]

OK, so let's get into the subtleties of a planet aspecting another planet within a cycle and within a transit to a natal situation.

NATAL CHART: ONE PLANET RELATIVE TO ANOTHER IN A CYCLE.

** The Planets in a Cycle Relationship:
Considering the slower moving planet as the anchor/reference planet and the faster moving planet as the expression-focus of the pair, let us keep in mind that the faster planet moving away from the conjunction can be seen as looking to free its natural expression from the meaning of the anchor planet. When the faster planet passes its oppositional point in the cycle, it moves back towards the anchor planet and may be said to be passing through steps to integrate its expression with that of the anchor planet.

If we were to use Saturn and Mars, Mars moving away from Saturn, for example:
0-45; Obeying the rules but pushing the envelope, acting to determine the limits.
45-90; Breaking the rules, acting without restraint, building without a plan.
90-135; Defining your rules, enforcing them, acting within them as long as it suites you and produces some results. Determination to "get it done."
135-180; Adjusting the rules, refining your methods for better results.

Above, these examples stress Mars acting like Mars in various ways contrary to past practice, expectations, rules.

180-225; Aware of constraints that are bigger than what you wish to fight against, you adapt your actions to accomodate the actions of others.
225-270; You consciously exploit and incorporate the efforts of others to find a working relationship
270-315; You utilize resources and existing structures to support strong actions and directions taken to achieve some form of productivity.
315-360; You adapt actions to meet new plans, you prepare for a new role.

Above, these examples stress Mars adapting to reality and constraints greater than themselves. This is the "moving out and doing it my way" phase and the "coming back and doing it our way" phase of the cycle.

NATAL CHART: ONE PLANET RELATIVE TO ANOTHER IN AN ASPECT.

I don't use signs, Tropical or Sidereal. When engaging in deeper natal chart interpretations, I do consider the nature of the astrological planets and the modes/qualities of the signs that two planets are located in. How Saturn-square-Mars works when Saturn is in a Fire sign and Mars in a Water sign is different in the nuances applied when Saturn is in an Earth sign and Mars in a Fire sign. The stress and challenge of the square aspect against these factors gives some interesting shadings.

TRANSITING TO NATAL PLANET CONTACTS.

I see the natal chart as potential seeking to be actualized through the experiences we gain as transits and time pass by. I see the transiting planets as activating that "potential" in ways that correlate with experiences. Transits that are conjunctions blend their expressions in ways that link to the general theme of the natal planet and the complexities of that planet's relationship with other planet(s). Transits that are aspecting natal planets other than in a conjunction tend to work in a more variable manner. A) If the transiting planet is part of a natal complex-of-planets with the natal planet, it expresses itself as a focus of that natal complex, acting as a "leader" or "emphasis" of that natal potential to express itself within one's life-context. B) If the transiting planet has no natal aspect-pattern-relationship with the natal planet, one has to look for other considerations.

"Other considerations" for me, since I work with cyclic charts such as Solar Returns and daily charts, might be a given transiting planet aspecting the natal planet from the same position near an angle as in the natal chart (the cyclic chart having a differing rotational position than the natal chart). Or, the transiting planet might have a aspect to another planet that has a relationship to the natal planet in the natal chart. Or, in a daily chart we may have a transiting planet at that daily charts MC while the MC of the Solar Return as an aspect to a natal planet. Is this a valid link? Who knows, we are dealing with those "secondary" links that boarder on the "intuitive" linking that some astrologers claim to utilize. There is a "feel" to astrology that is hard to put into rules at times. Yet, this "feel" for relationships and flow of cycles is what leads us to find relevance in the model that we call a chart. Dave