The Zodiac Question

[Jane Griscti]

Quite frankly, I would expect a native with Ares, Helios, Zeus and Aphrodite in the Ram in the 4th and Fortune 10th to be a much more aggressive character.

I am somewhat skeptical of much that's been said to describe images of the zodiac, even as early as Valens. We know that D&F has rather little to say in describing the images other than the usual masculine, feminine, terrestrial, etc., and we can also assume that corruption of the earliest teachings occurred rather soon. Regarding zodiac images, Valens often reads as a stream of consciousness collected from various sources. That being said, his description of the Ram doesn't include the trait of aggression. In part he says:

"Those who are born in this zoidion, in accordance with the rulership relation, then will be bright, notable, commanding, just...free, authoritative, bold in purpose, inconstant, irregular...quickly changing, well-off." (The Anthology, Book 1, Project Hindsight, 1993, p. 8)

I was thinking more of the dignity of Ares and Helios in the Ram rather than the meaning of the Ram itself. You originally stated

it would seem that the sidereal position of Helios/Zeus is stronger for eminence

Surely the dignity of Helios and Ares in the Ram, especially in a pivot, would argue for a greater eminence than Paar achieved. Leadership is strongly associated with Helios and Ares would add a martial flavour to the mix. Paar is described in The Gauquelin Book of American Charts as "A sophisticated man; acerbic wit; gift for verbal improvisation; sullen; tired; arrogant tones; can counter punch an attack; can provoke stinging repartee; quiet life; shy smile; worries about his work; cautious about success". Doesn't quite seem to fit the chart of a man with a strong Ares and Helios.

[Jane Griscti]

(Contined from previvous post)
I mentioned Parr's exalted Sun because that placement would seem to be self-directed as Parr was from his teen years, whereas Aphrodite/Venus [we would think] would be more inclined to partnership or domesticity. The Gauquelins didn't find any profession that correlated with Venus. Mainly I was emphasizing the difference between Helios/Ares and Aphrodite since we have stelliums in their images. (Considering exalted Helios as co-ruler of the Ram)

Thank you for posting the charts with Lots. I think there might be an error since the tropical and sidereal placement of Exaltation is exactly the same to the minute. I don't have a program that calculates these lots. Basis is with Zeus in both charts, so we're back to the dispositors again.

The Lot of Exaltation = Asc + 3 Taurus - Moon; for the sidereal calculation 272°59' + 33° - 141°39' = 14°20 of the Virgin. For the tropical; 295°35' + 33° - 164°16' = 14°19' of the Virgin, there is no error. The references I referred to concerned the rulers of Fortune and Spirit being in Basis, Zeus does not rule either.

Your original focus was on the enclosure of Aphrodite by Helios and Zeus which I didn't have time to look at earlier.

On the question of enclosure, Aphrodite is better tropically because in her own chariot she loses the stigma of being under the beams. But the sidereal enclosure is stronger due to the image placements of Helios and Zeus. It would seem that sidereally Aphrodite loses her persona to exalted Helios and Zeus. So the nature of enclosure is rather important in actual practice. Does Aphrodite or Helios/Zeus dominate in Jack Parr’s life? The question of dispositors is also imortant when it comes to actually reading a birth chart. Trigon lords of the Moon are all right tropically, but much stronger sidereally.

And you've said

I also can't speak of Hellenistic interpretation since there is little beyond the very basics in D&F.

I'm little at a loss as to what to say here. How can we determine whether Aphrodite or Helios/Zeus dominate in his life if no interpretation is attempted? The enclosure is the same in both charts except for the image it occurs in. Tropically, Aphrodite is in the Bull and she disposits the enclosure. Sidreally the enclosure is in the Ram and Ares disposits. As Ares is in his own domicile, and we are talking about the Lord of Spirit who is responsible for managing the natives actions, one would expect the native to at times exhibit anger, audacity, violence, and recklessness in his affairs. To my knowledge the man was not violent and even in his anger he conducted himself with charm, wit and theatrics; traits attributed to Aphrodite.

If we are considering eminence, while Helios is exalted sidereally he is not the Lord of Spirit or the 10th; Aphrodite in domicile, Lord of Spirit and of the 10th would argue for a stronger eminence in his career than Aphrodite in detriment, USB, Lord of Spirit and the 10th. Also, sidereally, Helios is Lord of Fortune so one would expect the native's fortune to be in some manner connected with leadership and authority or at the least, someone in a position of authority; tropically, Fortune is in the Virgin ruled by Hermes and surely one can say his Fortune was strongly connected with language, society and friendship.

[Therese_Hamilton]

by Jane Griscti on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:29 pm

Surely the dignity of Helios and Ares in the Ram, especially in a pivot, would argue for a greater eminence than Paar achieved.

I'm going to default to modern terminology for modern charts in the zodiac discussion. I just don't see "Aphrodite" for example, as being as relevant today as Venus. In modern times eminence can happen in many ways. All the many thousands born each year with an exalted Sun in a pivot can't be kings or princes. I'd say the modern meaning of "eminence" can refer to any person who rises above the crowd in his personal sphere of life. If that person is widely known (as Parr was), then it would seem that Jupiter would come into the mix, Jupiter having to do with wide exposure. Parr's Venus, 10th lord, is enclosed by Jupiter.

Paar is described in The Gauquelin Book of American Charts as "A sophisticated man; acerbic wit; gift for verbal improvisation; sullen; tired; arrogant tones; can counter punch an attack; can provoke stinging repartee; quiet life; shy smile; worries about his work; cautious about success".

We do have a Martian tone here: arrogant tones, can counter punch an attack, can provoke stinging repartee... Mars is strong in both zodiacs in Aries, being the closest planet to the ascendant degree. There is also some Saturn: (worries about his work, cautious about success and some Mercury acerbic wit, gift for verbal improvisation.

Jane Griscti wrote:
I'm little at a loss as to what to say here. How can we determine whether Aphrodite or Helios/Zeus dominate in his life if no interpretation is attempted?

This depends on the type of interpretation. If we're staying with D&F, it's true; we don't have a lot to go on. But for Jupiter, Venus and Hermes we do have (abridged):

Zeus: reputation, advantage, good nature, sovereignty and honor, skillfulness, receptions with leaders

Aphrodite: [i] fine of figure, brilliant, beauty of form, purity, wearing of crowns, priestly office, delicacy, present with the principle of soul: affection, erotic love, desire, religious worship, skill in the arts, cosmetic theatrical offices...

Hermes: ...everything that is administered with language... (pp. 73-76)

Zeus best describes Parr's role in life, and 10th lord Venus is enclosed by Zeus. Venus herself doesn't generally describe Parr according to the definitions in D&F.

I wouldn't relate the Lot of Spirit to mundane affairs even if this is hinted at by some of the early authors. At any rate, since I've never used the Lot of Spirit I have to refrain from comment.

(screen trouble--to be continued in another post)

[Therese_Hamilton]

...he conducted himself with charm, wit and theatrics; traits attributed to Aphrodite...

Theatrics, I believe, belongs to Jupiter. Wit is most likely a Mercurial trait. Charm is Venus, yes, and in both zodiacs Mercury, the planet of communication is in Taurus with Venus as dispositor. We do have a problem with multiple Hellenistic authors that often don't always agree with each other, and I personally don't have time to scan all the literature.

Also, sidereally, Helios is Lord of Fortune so one would expect the native's fortune to be in some manner connected with leadership and authority or at the least, someone in a position of authority...

I tend to see any well placed planets in pivots as simply being "strong" or conducive to business. D&F doesn't list Helios as linked to "leadership and authority." Then again we may have to have a broader definition of both these terms in modern times. To be thorough, we'd have to consult several of the early Hellenistic authors, and we know that almost immediately these authors put their on stamp on their writings.

So (as is my habit) I decided to look at similar configurations in modern charts. First I pulled charts from ADB with Capricorn ascendants and Sun, Mars and Venus in Aries. There were only five charts including Parr's. Three of these charts would have tropical Aquarius rising, and except when noted, the stellium would be in Taurus. Three are singers (!), and one is a theatre producer (directive, authority). Singers: great for these planets being in Taurus, right?! Let's look at Venus:

Maria Alcina, Brazilian singer: 14 Cap Asc; Sun 8, Venus 9, Mercury 18 Aries; Venus and Mercury fall on either side of the ascendant degree, and Venus is placed between Sun and Mercury. Sun is in adherence to Venus, and Venus is in concourse with Mercury. We have a strong Venus, especially in tropical Taurus. The problem is that Mars is the 10th lord for tropical Aquarius. Mars himself is in tropical Aries with Rahu (Moon's north node). Sidereally we lose Taurus completely, but Sun and Venus are in the bounds of Venus. (The zodiac question is never going to be easy!)

In the sidereal zodiac Venus is apparently helped by adherence to an exalted Sun, and this adherence has perhaps given the self-assurance to perform before the public.

Veronique Sanson, French singer 27 Cap rising; Mars 2; Rahu 2; Sun 10; Venus 12; Mercury 22 Aries. This lady was born two days after Maria Alcina, and she has the same configuration of Sun-Venus-Mercury-Mars-Rahu. Tropical Aquarius rising, stellium in Taurus, Mars-Rahu in Aries. Sun and Venus in sidereal bounds of Venus.

Giorgio DeLullo, actor and theatre producer; 17 Cap ascendant; Venus and Sun in Venus bounds in Aries; But in this case the Sun adjoins the ascendant degree in the 4th pivot rather than Venus or Mercury. Venus is in adherence to the Sun; Sun is in trinal configuration to Jupiter. It would seem that the Sun-Jupiter contact is responsible for him being a producer (authority) rather than only a performer.

Engelbert Humperdinct, Las Vegas entertainer, singer; Highly popular, a sex symbol with over 200 concerts a year. Here Venus is very close to the ascendant degree in the 4th pivot. Capricorn also rises in the tropical chart. Venus is in Aries in both zodiacs, in Jupiter's bounds sidereally and in Saturn's bounds tropically. Sun and Mars are in tropical Taurus.

There was a question about enclosure under the D&F topic. As these charts all belong to successful people, enclosure seems to support rather than restrict the enclosed planets. The situation is similar in most of the charts: Tropically Venus is in her own chariot enclosed by planets in Taurus. Sidereally Venus is in an unfriendly trigon, but enclosed by well placed planets. This can be seen as a toss-up.

We can, of course go further with interpretation by considering Mr. Schmidt's three priorities: Placement of (1) lord of the hour marker, (2) the lord of the Lot of Fortune; and (3) the sect lords of the light. For myself, until these three positions are thoroughly explored, I'm not willing to bring in other factors for interpretation.

I've noted the above positions in detail because of what happens when we study charts with Venus removed from the sidereal Aries/tropical Taurus stellium. There were seven charts in ADB with sidereal Capricorn rising with Sun and Mars (but not Venus) in Aries. With this pattern we see something very interesting happening. The warrior Mars is triumphant, and there is no influence of Venus:

Ernest Hellum, a soldier and victim of a fatal accident
Alessandro Sommacampagna, Italian terrorist
Edith Vuarnet, member of a cult (4th?), found murdered; Also she belonged to a noted family (exalted Sun in 4th, place of the parents)
Homicide 1184: Drinking and driving, killed his passenger in an accident. Sent to prison for manslaughter, but released within a year.

Of the three remaining charts:
Janice Giles, astrologer; no other information given
Arthur Borges, noted family (exalted Sun in 4th)
Walter Slezak, actor, won awards, sang at the Met, many broadway hits, son of noted operatic tenor; death by suicide

Of the seven charts, we have three from noted families, which would give some support the concept of the 4th being related to parents. (One possible manifestation of an exalted Sun?) Five of the seven were involved in accidents/homicides/suicide which would support the theory that an angular malefic in its own chariot is not a good thing. If the Sun is exalted, then the position of Mars in Aries is no help without counteracting influence from Venus or Jupiter. Tropically Mars in Venus-ruled Taurus doesn't take on a Venus tone in these more difficult charts. Only Edith Vuarnet's Mars remains in Aries tropically: Uranus-Sun-Mars all remain in Aries, Aquarius ascendant.

Of course, timing is everything. Every configuration in a chart doesn't manifest throughout the life. Both Walter Slezak (suicide) and Jack Parr (multiple health issues from 1989-91) have Mars in sidereal Aries in the 4th as do all the charts discussed here.

All these charts can be viewed, studied and printed (tropically) from the Wiki AstroDatabank site. The sidereal charts are not available on Wiki, but can be computed from the data. For interest and comparison I'll add another post dealing with charts with Sun in tropical Aries/sidereal Pisces in the 4th place. I'm using whole sign houses in these posts.

Therese Hamilton

[Jane Griscti]

You gave the following description of Zeus from D&F:

Zeus: reputation, advantage, good nature, sovereignty and honor, skillfulness, receptions with leaders

The full quotation, for Zeus, from Antiochus is: "As the star of Zeus is between the place of Kronos and Helios, it rules over magnificence and reputation and solemnity and things corresponding to these; it is called the 'Radiant One'."

And from Porphyry: "The star of Zeus has command of magnificence, reputation, solemnity, advantage and good nurture, sovereignty and honor, skillfulness and receptions with leaders and the masses"

And you conclude that:

Zeus best describes Parr's role in life, and 10th lord Venus is enclosed by Zeus. Venus herself doesn't generally describe Parr according to the definitions in D&F.

Are you saying here that Zeus, and not Venus, best describes the position Paar held in the world, his reputation and career? If so, where, in Paar's life, is there evidence of magnificence and solemnity? His reputation, as characterized in the Astrodatabank Wikil pages, was that of a whiner and hot-head. Sidreally neither Zeus nor Aphrodite, nor Fortune, have any connection with Hermes, who, you've agreed, rules over "everything that is administered with language". How, then, do you account for his being known primarily as a talk-show host?

I have not looked at the other charts you've brought in; if we can't agree on the conditions for examining Paar's chart there seems little point in examining other charts.

[Therese_Hamilton]

This post is for anyone who might be interested in comparing 4th place (house) planets in tropical and sidereal Aries. This is a check against Jack Parr's Sun-Mars-Venus in sidereal Aries/tropical Taurus. I've already posted the names of those who have sidereal Sun/Venus/Mars in Aries. My next step was to excerpt charts from AstroDatabank with these same planets in tropical Aries (sidereal Pisces). There were only two charts with the Sun-Venus-Mars combination in the 4th in Aries with only a few words of biographical data, not enough for any kind of study.

So I attempted two other searches: Sun-Venus in Aries and Sun-Mars in Aries. I eliminated charts with overlapping positions of these planets or the ascendant between the zodiacs. This happens in the first 6 degrees or so of the sidereal zodiac and the last 6 degrees or so of tropical signs. So there remains a pure comparison: Tropical Capricorn ascendant with Sun-Mars or Sun-Venus in the 4th place (sign). These positions are the same as a sidereal Sagittarius ascendant with Sun-Mars-Venus in Pisces. To view the tropical charts and extended biographies, please go to the Wiki AstroDatabank site: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page

Tropical Aries: Domicile of Mars, exaltation of the Sun
Sidereal Pisces: Domicile of Jupiter (plus modern Neptune) and exaltation of Venus

CHARTS WITH TROPICAL SUN AND MARS IN ARIES
(4TH PLACE, CAPRICORN ASCENDANT) 6 total

Three of these births are within a few days of each other in the same year (April 4-9, 1932), and two within two days of each other in the same year (April 12-13, 1947).

PIERRE LACOTTE, April 4, 1932: dancer, choreographer, ballet teacher
JOHN GAVIN, April 8, 1932: diplomat, US ambassador to Mexico, former actor
PAUL KRASSNER, April 9, 1932: Editor and publisher of an underground journal that shocked and outraged readers; politically iconoclastic, also spent time doing stand up acid comedy.

The above charts all have Jupiter in tropical Leo in trine configuration to the Aries planets. An interesting study is to see where the interception happens between Mars and the Sun.

MAURICIO MATTAR, April 3, 1964: Actor and singer known for his romantic style. Eclectic tastes, finally dedicated himself solely to music ; Known to be determined and persistent.

MENSAN 10550, April 12, 1947: Tests very high, teacher, tester, evaluator
RICHARD HOUCK, April 13, 1947: pro astrologer, prolific author, background in business; combines sidereal charts with western techniques in political, business, financial and medical astrology.

These two charts have Mercury applying to Mars in trinal aspect from Jupiter, but there is sign mixing in the tropical zodiac. Sidereally Jupiter is in Scorpio trine Mercury and Mars in Pisces. In the tropical zodiac Jupiter remains in Scorpio and Mercury remains in Pisces. Only Mars is in Aries.

Four of these six were performing artists and/or followed other Jupiter type occupations according to the Gauquelins, who placed Jupiter with acting and politics. Richard Houck stands out as unique in working with astrology, but in the political and financial areas (Jupiter). Six of the charts have Sun-Mars configured with Jupiter, and this highlights the zodiac problem. If we can find reasons for these lives to reflect Aries or exalted Sun with Mars, then the Jupiter configuration explains that planet's influence. Sidereally the charts are heavily influenced by Jupiter because Sun-Mars are in Pisces and Jupiter either in Scorpio or exalted in Cancer. Mauricio Mattar has no Jupiter configuration with his tropical Aries placements.

I've used all caps for emphasis because I'm still unable to edit (quotes, bold, italic) on-line. So this has been typed off-line and pasted to the site.

My final post will cover Tropical Sun and Venus in Aries in the 4th place.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

SUN AND VENUS IN THE 4TH PLACE (TROPICAL ARIES, SIDEREAL PISCES)

This is the final post noting the positions of Sun/Venus/Mars in the 4th place in charts excerpted from AstroDatabank, version 4 (the final version). The purpose of excerpting these charts was to see if there were any discernable differences in the lives of these people between an exalted Sun in tropical or sidereal Aries.

Any charts with overlapping positions of the Ascendant, Sun, Mars or Venus between zodiacs were eliminated. That is, there are no charts where these positions are in the same sign in both zodiacs. This means that charts were not included with these positions in the early degrees of sidereal Aries or the late degrees of tropical Aries. Thus (with one exception), there is a clean break between zodiacs. Biographical data in ADB is more often than not severely limited, and this will limit what we can learn from the charts when we study configurations, confines and other astrological factors.

Also a reminder that tropical and sidereal signs manifest entirely differently. Sidereal signs will often reflect their domicile and exalted lords (which may be all they were ever meant to do). That is, Pisces will display occupations or life styles with a Jupiter (Neptune) and/or Venus flavor. Much of today's tropical delineation rests on the elements and qualities as well as observation. All charts and brief biographies can be viewed on the Wiki ADB site.

ADB CHARTS WITH SUN AND VENUS IN TROPICAL ARIES (Sidereal Pisces)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARIANNE ALIREZA, Moon. Sun, South Node, Venus in Aries, 4th.
Because this woman's life experience was so unique, I'm including her chart even though her ascendant overlaps in the zodiacs, Sagittarius in both. She wrote a book about her life, "At The Drop of a Veil." She left her American life to marry an Arab and live in his harem in Saudi Arabia. This was in 1945 when the political situation was different than today.

SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, Attorney, Supreme Court Justice: considered one of the most powerful women in America.

ARNO MUELLER, Psychologist, parapsychologist, astrological data collector; research astrologer, publisher of data books

PAUL DE LEEUW, Dutch TV personality, vulgar, shocked viewers, rich

ULRICA HYDMAN-VALLIEN, glass desinger

Two astrologers:
--------------------
KAREN MORGAN, counseling astrologer, child development; director of an astrological center
KARL H. AMBJORNSON, Uranian astrologer

Two noted families:
------------------------
VICTORIA LILLY SHAFFER
JETT TRAVOLTA (suffered fatal seizure)

Three sports people
-------------------------
PIERRE LANGLOIS, Boxing champion
OLIVIER MAGNE, French Rugby player
GUGLIELMO SEGATO, Italian bicyclist

It's long been my contention that unless we compare a number of charts similar in either lifestyle or astrological positions, that we can easily get a false idea of the significance of various configurations or placements. This is why I do this type of comparative research. It often happens that if one chart has planets in an appropriate sign (image) for an occupation or lifestyle, the chart cast in the other zodiac will have significant planets in confines of the appropriate planet. For example, Olivier Magne has Sun and Venus in tropical Aries in the 4th place. In the sidereal zodiac these planets are in the bounds/confines of Mars.

Then there is the question of what shows a wealthy and powerful person (eminence) today. For example, Oprah Winfrey, said to be born January 29, 1954 (birth hour not certified), is one of the most powerful, wealthy and influential women in today's world. She is an icon with an international reputation, but is not royalty or a politician.

Oprah has a Sun-Venus-Mercury stellium in a domicile of Saturn (tropical Aquarius/sidereal Capricorn). If her birth date is correct, we'd have to note Jupiter in trinal configuration to these planets as suggesting her eminence. But what shows her extremely powerful ability to influence the masses and the financial interests of so many companies? Would this configuration alone do it if properly placed in the birth chart?

Perhaps we're all astrologers because we all love to explore the unknown. We know if we lived a thousand years, there would still be more to learn about astrological interpretation.

Therese Hamilton

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Good day to everyone,

Hopefully it will not be too late to continue this interesting thread.

May I address a request to you, Ms. Jane Griscti? You would very much oblige by posting a tropical Hellenistic analysis, as you have done of Jack Paar's chart, of Mahatma Gandhi's chart so we can compare it with Ms. Hamilton's sidereal reading. This would be especially useful to me as I have on two occasions had Gandhi's chart as the basis for parts of an astrology course.

Perhaps sidereal (question: which?) and tropical zodiacs are not so irreductibly antagonistic after all. Here is a link to an apropos article by an experienced professional astrologer who works with both:

http://www.soulhealing.com/ending.htm

My own humble experience to date has been that a sidereal zodiac (e. g. Fagan-Bradley) generally mirrors mundane matters more accurately, the tropical zodiac reflecting a more inner, even initiatic perspective. Obviously, both meet in the anima (Latin) or psyche (Greek) or nafs (Arabic), no difference intended, but since the English word "soul" and the German one "Seele" are often (ab)used to mean spirit, I try to avoid using them. Many astrological factors are not affected by the choice of zodiac.

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Ray Mardyks]

This is a response to the above 8.7.2009 post by Michael Erlewine. I would characterize his post as like a book review of a book never read. It comes across like shamelessly exploiting an opportunity to promote one's own "book" and point of view, with web address included, of course!

I honestly don't know exactly what Mr. Erlewine means by "I didn’t just study it; I lived it", "the deep space universe which I resonate with (and still do)" and particularly in reference to myself; "carrying on the research and by their lives preserving the lineage." What lineage? I am not and have never been a "Deep Space" astrologer! Astrophysical Directions was a useful ephemeris in the early 1980s, until astronomy software, such as Voyager by Carina Software, became available that was more functional, usable on a Mac and without so many errors. My use of this material was never aligned or similar, psychologically, philosophically or spiritually to Mr. Erlewine's approach.

After considering this post for some time (almost two years), I would say "belittled" is not a strong enough word to describe the effect of this post. I feel "insulting" and "abusive" are more appropriate. I find Mr. Erlewine's "been there done that" attitude and "Mr. Mardyks is okay, because he does what I used to do" position extremely offensive and ignorant, and not at all welcoming. I came to this forum to discuss astrology, not be "attacked" by the trolling evangelistic, neo-buddhist creator of the forum. A good moderator is one would prevent this kind of behavior, behavior that offends, abuses and alienates the participants. Or is that your intention Mr. Erlewine, so that you and your point of view are the only one remaining? Or is this forum just intended to improve search rating and links to your other websites?

As far as the "dharma" goes, Mr. Erlewine, my path has included meeting, receiving teachings from and meditating with all four heads of the living Tibetan Buddhist schools, amongst others. I understand that this path begins with compassion and I don't feel that as your motivation, so I see no purpose in going there with you. Also for your information and anyone reading who may be interested, I released a 260-page privately published book in 1995 called the Star Book: An Astrological Approach to Enlightenment. I assume, Mr. Erlewine, you have taken as much time to read it as you have to genuinely consider what my actual astrological work has involved, beyond how it may be an extension of yours or something you must insist has your name on it; ... zero!

In the same spirit as those now rising up in the Middle East, I felt it necessary to not remain silent after feeling "bullied" and "intimidated" away from here by Mr. Erlewine. If there is a lineage that I am carrying on, rest assured Mr. Erlewine, it is not one that you are higher up in the hierarchy of. You once said that I was the only one who "got" Astrophysical Directions. I can understand why you left that path, you obviously, from my point of view, weren't getting it! I assume with your manner of approach, they slammed the Temple doors shut when they saw you coming or trying to put up a sign to sell the furnishings.

I assume you have heard the expression, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." What happens when the student is so arrogant, he believes himself to be the teacher. What is the true teacher to do?