The Zodiac Question

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

The question of the zodiac is very important for Hellenistic astrology, but so far hasn't been discussed in any detail.

Very interesting text I found in Speculum Astrologiae of Francesco Giuntini(Lyons, 1586), page 1012:

http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/lib ... trologiae/

Here is a translation:
As far as many astrologers are concerned, in order to use correctly the oservations of Ptolemy , in their astrological predictions they calculate the planets according to the eighth shere. The true location of the Sun is to be found in the emphemeries.
Then, from the position of the Sun in the emphemeries the movement of the precession should be extracted and this way we get the true location of the Sun, which can not be got from the emphemeries.
From the planets we should also extract the precession and so we get the true location of the planets to the fixed stars. This method best meets my practice.

This text could not be found in the french translation of Giuintini(Junctin de Florence, Traite des revolutions solaires, Nice, 1962)

[Therese_Hamilton]

Mr. Kojuharov, thanks for the interesting translation. It seems that even in later centuries at least a few astrologers might have been considering an alternate zodiac.

Would it be possible for you to re-post here your message and zodiac graph (Greek Ayanamsa Values) based on horoscopes in Neugebauer's GREEK HOROSCOPES that you placed on the Babylonian Forum on May 18?

Thank you,
Therese Hamilton

[Martin de Karoly]

Dear Ms Therese Hamilton,

I have read, in the Babylonian forum, the article of D. Kojuharov, dated may 18, 2009. I collected from this article that the ancient Greeks were using a sidereal zodiac with Spica at 30° Virgo sidereal as the fiducial star. This is, if I am not mistaken, the Lahiri ayanamsa.

However, this does not prove they were right in doing so. We are safe in using the tropical zodiac. We can also safely use precession corrected charts. But, in order to use a sidereal zodiac, we need some evidence that it is the right one (assuming there is only one, but there may be several...).

I have been reading two articles by an Indian scholar, which are on the net. The author, K. Chandra Hari, has also written a book, « Hindu Zodiac and Ancient Astronomy », published around 2002, which is now out of print. The articles from which I extracted the following information are « On the Origin of Sidereal Zodiac and Astronomy » and « Sidereal Zero Point - A Mathematic Solution ».

The author first proves that the Hindu solar year is « anomalistic » in origin. That is the time between two passages of the Earth at the Perihelion, when the Sun is nearest to the centre of the Earth. But there is a difference between the value of this year in the « Siddhantas» of the 5th century AD and the true value and this means the sidereal zodiac had then departed from its true sidereal zero point.

The author’s theory is that « the initial point of the ancient Babylonian zodiac was the same at that of the Hindu’s which was the star Mula of sidereal longitude 240° as fiducial. With Mula as fiducial the « Mesadi » was 7°,5 west of the equinox in BC 300 and this almost perfectly coincided with the mean difference of Babylonian sidereal longitudes and the tropical longitudes of BC 300. »

Mula is Lambda Scorpii. It had its sidereal and tropical longitudes equal to 240 (0° Sagittarius) at the Vernal equinox of AD 233 (UT: 21 march 233, 03:23). The ayanamsa of J2000 is 24°35’8’’.79. The difference with Fagan-Bradley is only 0°9’2’’.

What proof can we get of this theory ? The author claims that the proof can only be astrological, astrology being the source of inspiration for astronomical observation. The proof can be found in « the principle of symbolic equivalence of the Man and the Cosmos ...This demands an astronomically defined physical point or vice-versa to establish the correspondence ». This reference can no longer be found in astrology today, but it still exists in Tantra. The point of coincidence is « Muladharam », le source of Kundalini at the bottom of the cerebrospinal axis. « In the conception of the human body as the zodiac, Muladharam coincides with the end-point of the 8th rasi, Scorpio, having a sidereal longitude of 240° ». The word Muladharam signifies Mula the fiducial. Besides, Mula is adequate because it has no proper motion and it is placed near the galactic centre (distance : 2°16’). In the human body, 240° coincides with the phallus (lingam). Over the zodiac, Mula marks the cosmic phallus.

The author thinks that it is likely that the Babylonian longitudes may be based on Mula because the mathematics of ancient Egypt and Babylonia owe their origin to the Vedic mathematical texts Sulbasutras (Seidenberg’s discovery). He gives a table showing that Babylonian longitudes match well with Hindu longitudes in sidereal with Mula at 240°.

Regards

Martine de karoly (Ms)

[Steve Spellman]

If any one is interested, ‘Zodiacs Old and New’, a book by Cyril Fagan, which is probably out of print but still can be found as a used book, presents some most interesting facts that the Sidereal Zodiac was the original Zodiac with the ancient Egyptians. Also explains how in the Dark Ages through Medieval times how and why the Tropical Zodiac was mistaken for the original Zodiac.

Regards, Steve

[Therese_Hamilton]

Dear Ms. de Karoly and Steve Spellman,

Some years ago I read K. Chandra Hari's arguments for his preferred zodiac in Raman's THE ASTROLOGICAL MAGAZINE. I remember questioning some of his conclusions. However, that's not really so important. What is important is that we keep an open mind on the zodiac issue, and there will be plenty of opportunity to test both zodiacs with techniuqes on the Hellenistic forum under the varioius topics. Unfortunately simple testing can fire up emotional arguments, but if we remain with factual data, perhaps we can make some progress in sorting out the issues.

ZODIACS OLD AND NEW is a very difficult book to find, but Cyril Fagan's zodiac discussions can be found in more recent publications. I have most of those articles. Cyril Fagan made some great discoveries, but he also missed in a few areas. However, rather than theoretical discussion, let's hope we can fairly test Hellenistic techniques in alternate zodiacs using modern birth charts.

Therese Hamilton

[Martin de Karoly]

Dear Ms Hamilton,

I have read an article by Cyril Fagan translated in French in the review of Volguine, "les Cahiers Astrologiques" n° 32 of may-june 1951. I have tested the Fagan ayanamsa at length in Western astrology charts. I found it gives good results as regards the personality. But the tropical zodiac works well in horary and it also describes the personality...How can they both be correct ? This is puzzling.

Recently, I calculated my temperament with the method given by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum in her book "Temperament, Astrology's Forgotten Key". The result, using the tropical zodiac, is correct. It does not fit if I use the sidereal zodiac.

Martine de Karoly (Ms)

[Therese_Hamilton]

Dear Ms Hamilton,

... I have tested the Fagan ayanamsa at length in Western astrology charts. I found it gives good results as regards the personality. But the tropical zodiac works well in horary and it also describes the personality...How can they both be correct ? This is puzzling.

Recently, I calculated my temperament with the method given by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum in her book "Temperament, Astrology's Forgotten Key". The result, using the tropical zodiac, is correct. It does not fit if I use the sidereal zodiac.

Dear Ms. de Karoly,

Since this is a Hellenistic forum, I'm hesitent to discuss these zodiac points in detail. So I will try to be brief.

Regarding the question of horary, I believe this branch of astrology responds to the mind-set of the astrologer. In other words the question will arrange itself according to the expectations of the astrologer setting up the horary chart. Astrologers who use various zodiacs claim success in horary.

As for personality, the images (signs) in the two zodiacs are quite different. They cannot be read in the same way. For one view of these differences, please see http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
At any rate, the personality is mainly in the planets rather than the images.

Likewise temperament as per Greenbaum is read quite differently in the two zodiacs. As one example, take the case of "Fern" (p. 61). Her teachers considered that she had a classic melancholic disposition. We see that she has a very large stellium in tropical Scorpio including the Sun and lord of the hour-marker (ascendant) which is Capricorn. The lord of Scorpio is Mars. Is Mars melancholic?

Now if the chart is shifted to the sidereal, Jupiter as Asc. lord is in depression in Capricorn, and the emphasis shifts to Libra, Saturn's exaltation sign/image. Tropical Scorpio is often quite depresssive in disposition, though the books generally talk about "power," which isn't really an expression of tropical Scorpio.

In Libra the emphasis shifts to Saturn even more than Venus. But if we consider Venus in Fern's chart, which is near the Zenith/M.C. in Virgo, then the lord of Virgo, Mercury, is in adherence (as per Antiochus/Schmidt) to Saturn. So using the sidereal zodiac, Fern's chart is very heavily influenced by Saturn.

I don't use the element designations in the sidereal zodiac, though I have tentatively assigned them to the four ancient qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry. Thus, the Gemini trigon is "cold" as per the exaltation of Saturn in Libra and its own sign of Aquarius. The Aries trigon is "hot" as per the exaltation of the Sun/Helios in Mars-ruled Aries, and the Sun's own sign of Leo.

"Wet" (irrational, partaking of emotion) goes to the Cancer trigon (Moist Jupiter is exalted in Cancer.) while "Dry" goes to the mental Taurus trigon, Mercury having its domicile and exaltation in Virgo/the Virgin. (Remembering that "Taurus" is tropical Gemini while "Virgo" is tropical Libra.)

So I offer the above as descriptions to be tested in the sidereal zodiac.

Note: I"ve edited this post to use modern planetary names since these are used in Greenbaum's book. I'm still considering if it's best to keep the modern names of planets and signs for contemporary charts.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

Postscript: I'd be delighted if Mr. Schmidt could elaborate on Aristotle's qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry. I've had to rely on rather spotty information gleaned from a few diverse sources. My sense is that these qualities could help in understanding sidereal images. (I forgot to mention that moist Venus/Aphrodite is exalted in Pisces in the Cancer trigon along with Jupiter/Zeus in Cancer.)

Therese Hamilton

[Dimityr Kojuharov]

I think that the issue of the zodiac is extremely important and should be treated quite seriously and responsibly.

In support of this, I will quote the text from the book "P*H*A*S*E Watch Fancy" from Robert Schmidt, volume I, 1997, The Golden Hind Press, page 84(the book is currently out of print):

"Because of the near identity of the tropical and sidereal zodiacs in Hellenistic times, we cannot take it for granted that the astrological techniques developed during this "worked" due to one zodiac or the other, whatever the philosophical reasons may have been for one over the other.Therefore, we will be applying the methods both tropically and siderally and keeping score."

Further in his book Mr Schmidt, by interpreting various topics of the Einstein's horoscope such as the marriage, the profession, etc., always interprets the Einstein's horoscope according to the both zodiacal systems- the sidereal and the tropical. This fact only confirms that the problem of the both zodiac systems is not defenitely and unanimously solved and until it would not happen, the both zodiacs are valid.

[Therese_Hamilton]

I think that the issue of the zodiac is extremely important and should be treated quite seriously and responsibly.

In support of this, I will quote the text from the book "P*H*A*S*E Watch Fancy" from Robert Schmidt, volume I, 1997, The Golden Hind Press, page 84(the book is currently out of print):

"Because of the near identity of the tropical and sidereal zodiacs in Hellenistic times, we cannot take it for granted that the astrological techniques developed during this "worked" due to one zodiac or the other, whatever the philosophical reasons may have been for one over the other.Therefore, we will be applying the methods both tropically and siderally and keeping score."...

Mr. Kojuharov, this is very interesting. I had never heard of that early publication, and it seems that now Mr. Schmidt has decided (at least for the time being) to apply Hellenistic techniques only in the tropical zodiac. There also seems to be something of a resistance (with a few exceptions) to considering the sidereal zodiac on this forum. There are many fertile areas for practical study, but often the tropical zodiac is assumed without mention of the sidereal. I'm happy to see increased mention of the sidereal.

My personal opinion is that every Hellenistic technique should be tested in both zodiacs. The Contractor's horocope was a case in point, where the tropical Aries Sun did not fit the year as well as a Sun out of sect in Pisces with Jupiter in depression in Capricorn. Although the ayanamsa can be something of a strumbling block, we're fairly safe for the time being using the Lahiri ayanamsa (Spica at 30 degrees of Virgo or the junction between Virgo and Libra) since this is quite close to planetary positions in ancient horoscopes. Refinement of the ayanamsa can come later.

Regarding the Hellenistic deities, where it seems quite natural to use their names when studying the ancient texts, I'm finding that for example, I really can't consider the glyph for Venus and call it "Aphrodite" or the glyph for Jupiter and call it "Zeus." So for me there's a problem bringing these ancient deities into modern horoscopes, though they certainly live in the ancient Hellenistic texts.

Therese Hamilton