Definitions and Foundations, Configuration Intensive

[Doug_Noblehorse]

Yes, good point about neighborly not being solely restricted to friendly feelings. I did not mean to imply that, although my statement certainly leads to that conclusion. I'm sure that most people by now realize that not all neighbors are friendly - I've certainly had my share of tangling with people in the 'hood.

Same thing goes with the idea of principles - not all principles adopted are voluntary - especially if you think about neighborhood associations!

As for neighboring planets in the confines of the same planet deriving their principles behavior from that planet, I would think you'd have to consider the general (as well as specific) state of beneficence or maleficence of the confine lord as well as the configuration of the resident planets to the confine lord.

I like and agree with your last paragraph below!

Mr. Noblehorse

Hi Mr Noblehorse

I agree with your interpretation of the confines representing principles of behaviour although I'm not sure I think of them as being voluntary; my impression of the material is that the planet has no choice, it must abide by the rules laid down by the confines lord, hopefully Mr Schmidt will correct me if I've understood this incorrectly.

I feel (at least on this one level) much more neighborly towards those who share the same principles...

Not quite sure that neighbouring is always friendly, the text does say "...it symbolizes not simply the friendships and hostilities that belong to the modes of planetary relationship related to figures, but the closest friendships and the deepest enmities" I gather the friendship or hostility depends on the planets themselves in adherence or the type of figural conjunction being made.

Hi Mr Stricker,

What I'm trying to understand is since it appears the intensity of relationship is increased by the two being in the same confines then the confine lord is presumably the reason for the intensification so would the behaviour of the planets be exaggerated along the lines defined by the confines lord?

For example, in JFK's chart, Hermes and Mars in adherence in Zeus' confines and Selene configured with the adherence also in Zeus' confines could possibly indicate an exaggerated personal and public [Selene] optimism but as Selene, Hermes, Mars and Jupiter are all in places unconducive to business this over the top optimism was harmful to the native. In some way, the behaviour the confine lord imposes plays a dominant role in the planets terms of engagement, the manner in which they interact with each other. Does that make sense?

[Jane Griscti]

I would think you'd have to consider the general (as well as specific) state of beneficence or maleficence of the confine lord as well as the configuration of the resident planets to the confine lord.

Yes, that's my sense of it too. That the condition of the confine lord and the behaviour he favours in his given state somehow determines the manner in which the planets in his confines behave. Now I'm wondering, would that also involve his, the confine lord's, place?

Would it only relate to place in terms of the behaviour evidenced being good for the native or bad for the native i.e. that the events associated with the topical places managed by the confine lord or for the place he is posited do not necessarily come into the picture other than being 'good' or 'bad' places for the native. Or, since presumably the planets would become active when the confine lord is activated, are the behaviours imposed by the confine lord only, or most pronounced, during events involving issues managed by the confine lord? Hard to say in the JFK example as Jupiter as confine lord is in the same topical place as Ares and Hermes; need to keep an eye out for an example where the confine lord is in a different place.

[Therese_Hamilton]

May I suggest that for a discussion of possible effects of planetary positions in a birth chart, the source of JFK's birth data is only "from memory." This makes the data somewhat unreliable. This is why I haven't posted notes on his chart as I had promised under another topic on this forum. As someone suggested a while ago, when discussing birth charts, we need to be very sure of the data. This means that the source person has seen the birth certificate or birth record. We saw several different birth times "from memory" for John McCain. When the birth certificate fianlly surfaced, the time agreed with none of the "from memory" times.

However, JFK's data does check out very well for the time and manner of his death. Does that mean we can continue using it with some assurance?

Lately I have done a great deal of work on confines and their lords, and it does seem that the the postion of the lord is very important. Later I hope to post notes under that topic on this forum.

Therese Hamilton

[Doug_Noblehorse]

I look forward to seeing your notes - since my Hellenistic journey began I've been fascinated by the confines and how they work.

Mr. Noblehorse

Lately I have done a great deal of work on confines and their lords, and it does seem that the the postion of the lord is very important. Later I hope to post notes under that topic on this forum.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

Mr. Noblehorse, I'd like your opinion (and anyone else who wishes to comment) on continuing to use JFK's chart as an example, because Ms. Griscti has already suggested possible interpretations. Any configuration that would reference the ascendant or places depends on an accurate birth time.

Therese Hamilton

[Doug_Noblehorse]

For what it's worth, my opinion is that AA rated data would be best to use, if at all possible.

Mr. Noblehorse

Mr. Noblehorse, I'd like your opinion (and anyone else who wishes to comment) on continuing to use JFK's chart as an example, because Ms. Griscti has already suggested possible interpretations. Any configuration that would reference the ascendant or places depends on an accurate birth time.

Therese Hamilton

[Jane Griscti]

Mr. Noblehorse, I'd like your opinion (and anyone else who wishes to comment) on continuing to use JFK's chart as an example, because Ms. Griscti has already suggested possible interpretations. Any configuration that would reference the ascendant or places depends on an accurate birth time.

Therese Hamilton

Ms Hamilton, I used JFK's chart as it was posted and I'm familiar with it although I usually use Rumen Kolev's rectified chart (which gives almost the same positions). I have no problem not using it as an example in the future; my own preference, for study purposes, is normally to use AA data, preferably Gauquelin charts.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Mr. Nobelhorse and Ms. Griscti, thanks for your replies. I had done some work with JFK's chart and rather hate to give it up, but I think to stay with Mr. Schmidt's high standards we should work with AA data. There are more than enough such charts in the Wiki Rodden Databank. It's a wonderful service to astrologers to have the data in a public place for us to use free of charge. The source notes are invaluable, and I was quite disheartened to read that JFK's data was only from memory.

Therese Hamilton

[Jane Griscti]

One chart I'd like to propose for further study is that of Jack Paar, his chart data is classed as AA on Astrodatabank. I've always found him an interesting character and I find his chart no less so. It has a number of interesting features: 4 planets in the Bull in the 4th whole sign house, 2 planets in domicile, Aphrodite in the Bull and Ares in the Ram, no planets retrograde, tetragonal or diametrical.

The stellium in the Bull brings up an interesting question. There is an example of attachment by adherence with Helios at 11 Taurus and Aphrodite at 12 Taurus and neighbouring as both planets are in the confines of Hermes. However, at the same time, the adherence appears to be part of an enclosure of Helios as Ares is positioned at 27 Aries and there is no intervention. But I can't recall any examples in the text or in the CD Intensive that provide a principal for identifying or delineating overlapping scenarios.

Zeus and Hermes, in the same stellium, provide an example of concourse being in the same image, as do Aphrodite and Zeus, being less than 15 portions between them but more than 3.

As well, the entire stellium is configured with Selene, the Exaltation lord of the Bull, who sits at 14 portions of the Virgin. She is in a trigonal engagement (within 3 portions) with Helios, Aphrodite and Zeus; technically flowing forth from Helios and Aphrodite; and in a trigonal testimony relation with Hermes. I believe the figural conjunctions with Helios, Aphrodite and Zeus constitute examples of bonification; Selene being a natural benefic.

Selene is also in a hexagonal testimony relation with Kronos who is at 24 Cancer, making Selene the domicile lord of Kronos as well. Aphrodite and Helios are also in a hexagonal testimony relation with Kronos while Ares is slipping aside from a tetragonal engagement with him. The hexagon between Zeus and Kronos does not perfect and Hermes has completed his hexagon with Kronos and already slipped aside (there are more than 3 portions between them).

What I find interesting is that Selene's relations with the stellium and Kronos are all based on the 1st half of the synodic cycle while the Ares and stellium planets relationship with Kronos are all based on the 2nd half of the synodic cycle. My hope is that, given the distribution of the planets and the lack of retrogradation in the chart, it might be useful in trying to come up with some clear idea of how events from two halves of the synodic cycle differ, or not, in their display. If you spot any misapplication of the rules governing planetary configurations or any relationships I missed, feel free to point them out

[Doug_Noblehorse]

One chart I'd like to propose for further study is that of Jack Paar, his chart data is classed as AA on Astrodatabank. I've always found him an interesting character and I find his chart no less so.

Sounds good to me. After reading the short bios on Paar, I agree that he would make an interesting example.

It has a number of interesting features: 4 planets in the Bull in the 4th whole sign house, 2 planets in domicile, Aphrodite in the Bull and Ares in the Ram, no planets retrograde, tetragonal or diametrical.

4 planets in the Bull in the 4th Whole Sign house? I have 25 portions of the Goat-Horned rising, which would make the Bull planets the 5th Whole Sign house, wouldn't it?

The stellium in the Bull brings up an interesting question. There is an example of attachment by adherence with Helios at 11 Taurus and Aphrodite at 12 Taurus and neighbouring as both planets are in the confines of Hermes.

Are Helios and Aphrodite in an adherence? I was under the impression that attachment by adherence takes place only when the faster moving planet approaches (applies to) the slower moving planet. In this case Aphrodite is flowing forth from the adherence with Helios. If this is so, does the neighboring condition still hold if the planets involved are separating? Or is this a case of neighboring, but not necessarily watching over (which I believe is restricted to application?)

However, at the same time, the adherence appears to be part of an enclosure of Helios as Ares is positioned at 27 Aries and there is no intervention.

I don't think there is enclosure in this example. While it is true that Ares lies on one side, Kronos is not on the other side...

Which brings up an interesting supposition - is there mixed enclosure, which mixes the presence of malefics and benefics?

And does not Selene intervene with a ray (taking for the moment the bracketing of Helios by Ares and Aphrodite?)

But I can't recall any examples in the text or in the CD Intensive that provide a principal for identifying or delineating overlapping scenarios.

I suppose that's where we as astrologers come in - when things get messy and interesting!

Zeus and Hermes, in the same stellium, provide an example of concourse being in the same image, as do Aphrodite and Zeus, being less than 15 portions between them but more than 3.

Again, is there concourse when the bodily conjunction is separating? In this case, Hermes has dropped off or disengaged quite some time before...

I would agree that Aphrodite and Zeus are in concourse.

As well, the entire stellium is configured with Selene, the Exaltation lord of the Bull, who sits at 14 portions of the Virgin. She is in a trigonal engagement (within 3 portions) with Helios, Aphrodite and Zeus; technically flowing forth from Helios and Aphrodite; and in a trigonal testimony relation with Hermes. I believe the figural conjunctions with Helios, Aphrodite and Zeus constitute examples of bonification; Selene being a natural benefic.

Again, does bonification hold when the figure is separating? Otherwise, I would agree with your statments here.

Selene is also in a hexagonal testimony relation with Kronos who is at 24 Cancer, making Selene the domicile lord of Kronos as well. Aphrodite and Helios are also in a hexagonal testimony relation with Kronos while Ares is slipping aside from a tetragonal engagement with him. The hexagon between Zeus and Kronos does not perfect and Hermes has completed his hexagon with Kronos and already slipped aside (there are more than 3 portions between them).

Again, agreed.

However, thinking a bit deeper, does the faster moving planet slip aside... or does the slower moving planet slip aside? Bear with me here...

In the figures between the bodily conjunction and the diameter, I get the impression that it is the slower moving planet that initiates symbolic action by extending the right hand. After the figure perfects, it is the faster moving planet that initiates action by flowing forth.

In the figures between the diameter and the bodily conjunction, the reverse is suggested. It is the faster moving planet now that initiates the figure by overcoming (recall that in the first half of the cycle it is the slower moving planet that seems to initiate action during application.) Following this logic then, in slipping aside it would be the slower moving planet that initiates action by slipping aside, thereby allowing the faster moving planet to proceed.

This scheme incorporates the symmetry that seems to be a hallmark of Hellenistic aspect theory, in my opinion.

Thoughts?

What I find interesting is that Selene's relations with the stellium and Kronos are all based on the 1st half of the synodic cycle while the Ares and stellium planets relationship with Kronos are all based on the 2nd half of the synodic cycle. My hope is that, given the distribution of the planets and the lack of retrogradation in the chart, it might be useful in trying to come up with some clear idea of how events from two halves of the synodic cycle differ, or not, in their display. If you spot any misapplication of the rules governing planetary configurations or any relationships I missed, feel free to point them out

I agree. There must be some subtle distinctions that must be teased out from the nativity. I suspect that Kronos' involvement here might contribute to Paar's emotional prickliness, which in turn marked his reputation. Of course, Kronos is in anti-domicile, pivotal in the 7th place and is also the malefic contrary to sect, so he is not in the least inclined to be cooperative...

noblehorse