The use of the Images in delineation

[Martien Hermes]

Mr. Schmidt (and Mr. Erlewine):

Thank you very much for you inviting me into this Forum.
I am very pleased to meet fellow astrologers here sharing an interest in this fascinating new branch of astrology, some of whom I’ve had the pleasure of discussing Hellenistic astrology with on other Fora (Mr. Watson, Mr. Noblehorse, Mr. Blashke). I’m also intrigued by persons that were often mentioned on those Fora to attend here (Mr. Kolev, Ms George), and others who have, by the content of their posts, already made an impression.

Uhm… my last name really is Hermes, it is not an alias. All of my kin have it as their family name, but I’m the only astrologer as far as I’m aware. I believe it was Mr. Blashke who informed me that there apparently is an astrologer in London who also bears the name Hermes. Still, I’m happy with it.

Like Mr. Noblehorse I frequently have, in my study of Hellenistic astrology and the System of Hermes, questions about procedural or interpretational nuances... so I'll ask them here.
Although there is a thread on Images, I felt my question is off that topic, so I created this new one.

So here goes…

On Page 5& 6 of the first book of the Anthology in the translation of Mr. Schmidt, Valens writes:

“For, since this star [het is talking about Hermes] is capable of many pursuits, it furnishes activities in accordance with the variation in the zōidia or its variously configured interweavings with the Stars. For some of these zōidia, it furnishes knowing; for others, a negotiator; for some, service…”

I am much intrigued by the manner in which the images contribute to how the planets manifest, and would be very interested to know in what images Hermes produces knowing, negotiators and service.

Of course Mr. Schmidt and Hellenistic authors have made it clear that a lot of things that were mixed up in the delineation of the influence of images on planets in later astrology, are to be separated as different modes of influence (dignity being amongst them). Leaving thus the ‘bare’ meanings of the images. But… what are these and how to use them?
My question is: what do they contribute, or how do they modify the planets in them?

I know of the temporality mode, as per the quadruplicity (enduring-solid, initiating and breaking off-cardinal, and the alternating mode-double-bodied); and the various specific characteristics and identities of the images themselves (cut-off, crooked, etc.), but how are they used?

Are there general guidelines for this?
Are there examples known?
How do the Forum members use this?
Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Robert_Schmidt]

Welcome to the Hellenistic Forum, Mr. Hermes. You know of course that combinations of Ares and Hermes are generally not that favorable. But as they say, there are exceptions to every rule.

This is just a place-holder to let you know that I have seen your post and question, and will get to it as soon as I am able.

Robert Schmidt

[Martien Hermes]

By the way. I keep reading the 'other' names of the Images.
What exactly are the hellenistic names of the 12 Images?

[Gabriel_Rosas]

Mr. Hermes, look here http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?p=598#p598.

[Martien Hermes]

Dear Forum members

All the best to you and yours for 2010, and especially for Mr. Schmidt, who ran in some dire straits this past december.

I hope the Forum is still active as there have been no recent additions.
So here goes.

The exact use of the Images in practical delineation still eludes me.
Valens refers to them as follows when listing the several characteristics of them:
Book 1, page 8, of the Ram he says:
"Those who are born in this zōidion in accordance with the rulership relation, then, will be bright, notable, commanding, just, with a hatred of knaves, free, authoritative, bold in purpose, braggarts, great-souled, inconstant, irregular, haughty, up-in-the-air,7 threatening, quickly changing, well-off. "

Now this 'in accordance with the rulership relation' is intriguing, what is meant by that?

The footnote to this says:
"This seems to mean those who are born when the zōidion ruler is present in its zōidion, or perhaps also when it aspects it. Does that mean that this is the only time the zōidion is pertinent at birth? That the zōidion is represented only through the planet?"

Interestingly enough this is much like Valens' treatment of the separate terms in each sign. When listing them he also says that they only are valid when the ruler of that term is actually present there (unless later translations have altered this statement).

But this raises questions as these texts clearly refer to personal characteristics that we often only use for - say - the rising sign (or for moderners, the sun sign psychology). So how is this to be used?
Because, when you have three planets in their own images, does this mean that alle three characterdescriptions are appplicable to the native?

Or does it refer to the oikodespotes? That would seem more logical.

Does anybody have a clue?
Mr. Schmidt?

[Therese_Hamilton]

Martien Hermes wrote on Wed Jan 06, 2010:

"The exact use of the Images in practical delineation still eludes me."

Dear Mr. Hermes,

The above sentence made me smile, because if we had a clear answer to that question, astrology would be much clearer than it is now. I've come to the conclusion that much of what Valens writes about image traits is simply a collection derived from various sources during his travels. In general with Hellenistic authors we don't find psychological traits connected to zodiac signs. Valens is an exception. However, to consider your primary question regarding delineation:

"In Book 1, page 8, of the Ram [Valens] says
"Those who are born in this zoidion in accordance with the rulership relation..."

MH: "Now this 'in accordance with the rulership relation' is intriguing, what is meant by that?"

At this place in the text, that is really a speculative question as indicated by the notes referring to that quote. Reading everything Valens wrote about images in this section of the book (pp. 7-17), it's clear that he draws heavily on the planets associated with the images. The precise application is more clear for the Bull:

The Bull--Taurus (pp. 9-10) "And if the benefics should somehow incline toward this place, or also if the ruler should be well situated, they will become..." (see list below under The Bull):

APHRODITE (p. 4).........THE BULL (p. 10)

priestly rites....................archpriests
office of gymnasiarch.......gymnasiarchs
wearing of crowns............worthy of crowns
making music...................music loving
purple-dying.....................(worthy of ) purple

Valens here has taken some associations from Aphrodite and says that if there is the influence of benefics [on the image?] or if the ruler is well placed, these traits will manifest. We can probably assume he's speaking of Taurus on the ascendant, since the ascendant received the greatest emphasis in Hellenistic astrology. So whereas the Aries quote you cited is not so clear in meaning, in the Taurus quote on pages 9-10 Valens' meaning regarding application is more obvious.

Of course the most common use of images is that they tell us something about how the planets manifest. The problem with how images themselves may express is complicated because (presumably) each image has numerous possibilities of expression. We'd expect that the strength of individual planets would help us to zero in on which interpretation would be closest to correct.

For example, Valens says of Taurus: "some of them will be husbandmen, planters [farmers], builders..." (p. 9) Then of Kronos, Valens says: "It also makes laborers and farmers..." (p. 2)

So if the Bull is on the ascendant, Aphrodite is in an unprofitable place without aspect, but Kronos is in the profitable 9th place in his own image (Capricorn, the goat-horned), then any manifestation of Taurus related to Kronos (as farming) could manifest.

The owner of the chart would not be an archpriest or musician (Aphrodite). Since (in this hypothetical case), Kronos is in an exalted house, the 9th, the owner of the chart might be an overseer of the farming portion of an estate. Valens does say that Capricorn is a zoidion for stone-cutters and farmers.

In summary, planetary strength first, then synthesis with images.

As a note, I've found the bounds/confines to be very helpful in delineation, but not as they are described in most of the Hellenistic texts. I've found instead that they seem to be "support staff" to the lords of the confines. I've been considering how to present this with examples under the Egyptian Bounds topic. (This is zodiac specific, which is one reason I've been delaying a post.)

Therese Hamilton

[Martien Hermes]

Dear Mrs. Hamilton

Thank you very much for that explanation. It sure helps.
The Lion is also an example where Valens is more explicit.

It is clear though that it is the 'secondary' sign attributes (those due to the familirazation of the signs with what we now know as their dispositors) seem be be of more importance than the 'primary' ones (gender; mute/with voice; barren/prolific, etc.).

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here:

As a note, I've found the bounds/confines to be very helpful in delineation, but not as they are described in most of the Hellenistic texts. I've found instead that they seem to be "support staff" to the lords of the confines. I've been considering how to present this with examples under the Egyptian Bounds topic. (This is zodiac specific, which is one reason I've been delaying a post.)

What planets do you consider being the "support staff" to the lords of the confines?

Thanks

[Therese_Hamilton]

Dear Mrs. Hamilton

It is clear though that it is the 'secondary' sign attributes (those due to the familirazation of the signs with what we now know as their dispositors) seem be be of more importance than the 'primary' ones (gender; mute/with voice; barren/prolific, etc.).

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here:

As a note, I've found the bounds/confines to be very helpful in delineation, but not as they are described in most of the Hellenistic texts. I've found instead that they seem to be "support staff" to the lords of the confines. I've been considering how to present this with examples under the Egyptian Bounds topic. (This is zodiac specific, which is one reason I've been delaying a post.)

What planets do you consider being the "support staff" to the lords of the confines?

Thanks

Yes, it does seem that the dispositors are drawn upon much more than the primary ones, as you call them. There is so much study and research left to us who are moderns. A few of the primary associations were used in horary astrology, but it's really up to us to study and test additional applications, especially in natal astrology.

A little later I'll try to give examples of the use of planets in confines under the Egyptian Bounds topic. But briefly, as an exmaple, if a particular planet has a number of other planets in its confines, that gives a great deal of added emphasis to the bounds lord, and he has a lot of strength to carry out his tasks. This is reflected in the life work. I have hesitated to post examples because many years ago I converted to the sidereal zodiac.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

TESTING IMAGES ACCORDING TO VALENS:
Tiger Woods has been much in the news lately. Because he has the same sign on the ascendant in both zodiacs, and its lord Mercury also in the same sign (Capricorn), plus Venus in sextile to Mercury remains in Scorpio, his natal chart is a good one to test image principles. Tiger's tropical chart and biography can be seen on the Wiki site. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page

With Virgo rising, does Valens say anything that could be applied to the life of Tiger Woods, who has been called the best golfer who ever lived? (Dec 30, 1975, 10:50 p.m. PST, Long Beach, CA; AA rating) Ascendant lord Mercury is in a place of doing business, the 5th, with a three degree trinal orb to the ascendant. Mars is at the zenith in tropical Gemini and retrograde. (This is a modern chart, thus I'm using modern terminology.) Both Mercury and Mars are in aspect to the ascendant.

According to Valens, we should be seeing some manifestation of Virgo, since Mercury is in aspect to the ascendant. With Hermes, (p. 5) Velens emphasizes intellect, commerce, geometry, banking arts, sending messages, etc. However, thrown into the mix is wrestling, which in modern times with many more types of athletics, might be related to golfing. Both wrestling and golf employ skill using the hands and arms. Most of Valens' Hermes traits don't apply to Tiger Woods, although profit is listed, and Tiger Woods is extremely wealthy due to his many competitions. But Valens probably means to emphasize profit through commerce and trade.

Reading Valens' Virgo (pp. 13-14) is equally unhelpful, although perhaps a case could be made for "pertaining to those who practice a handicraft.." But "good at domestic affairs, writers, those who are supported by speeches and calculations...initiates into occult matters..." aren't helpful if we are attempting to delineate Tiger's chart without knowing who he was.

On to Mars at the zenith. Velens is almost completely negative on Ares giving it "violence, rapines, screams...etc." But one trait for Mars is quite fitting for Tiger: adulteries. Selecting other of Valens' Ares traits can be helpful: "...those who gain their ends through fire or iron [golf clubs], handicraftsman, workers in hard materials..."

To return to images. Mercury in Capricorn: Because this is a sign of Saturn, Valens is quite negative. However, some of his Capricorn traits could apply to Tiger's personal life: "...those who make bad mistakes, fickle, liars...shameful..."

How about Mars in tropical Gemini? Here Valens is drawing on Mercury's traits: "...fond of discourse, those who work with letters and education, lovers of music, those who teach with the use of voice...aptitude for commerce, initiates in occult matters...."

Valens' Gemini is no help in describing Tiger. How about Taurus, the sidereal image for Mars? Not really helpful either, though "notable and bright" might apply. How about the dispositors of Mars, Mercury in the tropical zodiac and Venus in the sidereal? Mercury has been discussed above. Venus is in sidereal Scorpio: Here we are back to Mars. Valens says of Scorpio: "...Those so born are treacherous, knavish, rapacious, murderers, traitors...etc..."

We aren't going to get much help in delineating images/signs from ancient authors, except perhaps for the hint to pay attention to the planets associated with the images (ruling and perhaps exalted planets). Culture today is far more complex than it was in Hellenistic times. As Tiger ages, will he turn more toward the symbolism of Mercury? Perhaps. But as moderns, we have the task of greatly expanding on astrology's ancient fundamentals. It's no wonder that we can be puzzled as to how to apply images in interpretation.

How about the bounds/confines? Though in the same image in both zodiacs, Mercury inhabits different confines, Hermes in the sidereal, and Ares in the tropical.

Valens on the bounds of Hermes in Virgo: "...most exalted, administrative, very orderly, quite wise, fitting, ordaining great things, most sagacious, noble and eminent in all things, unfortunate only in matters of love..."

Valens on the confines of Ares in Virgo: "...harsh, popular, crowd-pleasing, wondering about at night, secretive, counterfeiting, adventitious. These degrees themselves commit outrages on men and lead them into bondage and mutilation and tortures and custody."

It's great to have these ancient translations, but it will take much work and study on our part to update and revise the interpretations for modern times.

Therese Hamilton

[Therese_Hamilton]

MORE ON IMAGES, "Signs" of the Zodiac

In the past days I've been mulling over Mr. Hermes' question about the use of images in delineation. Most of us who have been studying and using astrology for many years are convinced that signs/images have meaning, but we often reach a roadblock when trying to provide evidence for this.

I finally decided to go back to the source: Robert Schmidt's DEFINITIONS AND FOUNDATIONS. Here we find an unambiguous statement: "That stars become joint domicile masters whenever the same image is the exaltation of one star, but the domicile of the other." (p. 46) (I'll save the second part of this statement concerning the trigonal lords for later.)

We see that Valens followed this principle if we compare what he says about images associated with the same planet, as Ares for Aries and Scorpio. Aries is "bright, notable, commanding...free [presumably answering to no one but himself], authoritative, bold in purpose...great-souled..." (Valens, Book 1, Project Hindsight translation, p. 8) These are traits obviously associated with Helios/Sun, its exaltation being in the Ram.

However, Ares' second sign, Scorpio, has no exalted planet. So in Valens we find Scorpio to be "treacherous, knavish, rapacious, murders, traitors...secretive plotters, theives..." These traits appear to be connected to a malefic expression of Ares/Mars in the Scorpion.

Using the Rodden database (ADB 4), I began experimenting with ways image traits might manifest in birth charts. Initially I chose the first two images of the zodiac, Aries and Taurus because in theory these two side-by-side images should manifest in distinctly different ways. This is because Aries is associated with planets which are wholly masculine, the Sun and Mars (though Mars is nocturnal), while Taurus has feminine associations (Moon and Venus).

One of the tests I ran was for the Sun in semi-sextile aspect to the Ascendant from the 12th. We know the 12th is considered to be an unprofitable place, so why the 12th? This is due to my strictly personal observation that 12th house planets seem to be compulsive in expression, rather like a run-away train. (We know that a number of our U.S. presidents had 12th house Suns.) Perhaps this is one source of the malefic connotations of the 12th, little control over the planets so situated. These planets are just above the horizon, and perhaps are more influential on the ascendant than we give them credit for. At any rate, results for Helios/Sun in the 12th were surprisingly different for the Ram and Bull. (Anyone who knows me will be aware that I always work in the sidereal zodiac, but please stay with me for a moment.)

It turns out that we well might follow the Gauquelins in noting descriptive trait words from biographies. Beginning with Aries, though professions varied, we find these descriptive adjectives: "editor-in-*chief*, manager, president (of an association), distinguished, beloved and respected (by others); administrator, champion, super-star." Some of the actual professions represented included jurist, politician (state treasurer) astronaut, business administration, top athlete (swimming).

In other words if we are attempting to find specific Aries professions. we'd most likely come up with a near blank. But whatever the life work, certain trait words describe the Sun in the Ram. (Presumably Helios/Sun would in some way have to be in a position suitable for doing business. In the case of the 12th, we would look to aspects and dispositors.)

Moving on to the BULL/TAURUS:
Of this image Valens says its owners will be "versed in a handicraft [the arts]...pleasure loving, music loving, generous [helping others]... (Valens also adds the terms "notable, bright," similar to the Ram.)

Here in an image co-ruled by the Moon and Venus we have quite a group of helper/service occupations. We can presume that the underlying motivation is to interact and assist their fellow human beings or to be of service in some way. These people *like* being in a situation that involves give-and-take, mutual exchange. Social scientists will tell you that this motivation is found primarily in the female sex. In the Bull we have a social worker, a yoga teacher, a chiropractor, abuse counselor, a waiter, and seven astrologers, some of who are writers. The arts are heavily represented: dance, vocalists, musicians, fashion design and other arts.

We have a "romantic" leading man known to be "gracious and gallent." We have a sprinkling of occupations that demand specialized education: a chemical engineer, commercial real-estate broker, a high school teacher. We'd expect that Venus would itself shy away from heavily physical sweat-of-the-brow occupations and be drawn to work that is more mental or socially presentable, often requiring some specialized education as well as interchange with others rather than a "kingly" or rulership role.

Selene/the Moon is a reflective body that depends on feedback from others for a sense of well-being while Venus relates to others on a one-to-one basis. Helios/the Sun can stand tall and bright alone, but Aphrodite/Venus and Selene hardly exist without "the other." It isn't much fun to be an artist or musician without others to appreciate your work. Any helping profession guarantees daily close contact with one's fellow human beings.

Actually I was quite surprised by these results as I really didn't know what to expect. Now I'm eager to see if the Sun in other images might have their unique expression in the same house position. I believe that D&F provides us with the key ground rules and hints that we need, but today's astrologers have to finish painting the picture with intensive observation and modern tools.

A tremendous amount of study and experimentation is needed to "write the book" on images in modern times. The key is to find the precise positions or situations (aspects, dispositors, confines, etc.) in the birth chart that allow these traits (related to ruling planets) to manifest. While some truth does lie in today's astrological texts, there is a great deal of fiction regarding signs/images across the board in both zodiacs and within various modern cultures. We can't assume that we know anything for sure. This is my perspective on modern astrology, and why I've shifted from consultation to research in recent years.

Therese Hamilton