Testimony - definition from Antiochus?

[David_Stricker]

Continuing with Testimony (marturia)

After some clarification from Mr. Schmidt and others, I would like to return to the testimony concept. During the Configuration Intensive, Mr. Schmidt discussed an interesting factor that may have an impact on testimonial relationships. Just as the concept of neighboring seems to represent a modification (or maybe intensification) of the bodily and figural conjunctions, there is a way for the testimonial relationship to be modified as well. I am trying to be careful about what words to use to describe the impact of neighboring. The Hellenistic writers presented in "Definitions and Foundations" don't specifically indicate what the result of neighboring is exactly except that they "watch over" one another.

Many of the Hellenistic writers mention the concepts that certain images can be like-engirdening, equi-ascensional or commanding and obeying. There does not seem to be much utilization of these concepts in the writings but it is faithfully reported. Paul of Alexander describes it as a "sympathetic" relationship between the images (Ch. 12, p.25. of the translation in the 1993 edition of Project Hindsight). This was the first volume translated and I would be interested if there are other connotations of the Greek word translated as "sympathy". Paul's description on p.26:

"Those zoidia which are neighbors to each other also have a sympathy for each other that is exactly like those which are arranged in accordance with the same house-mastery (sunoikouria).

Those zoidia which are apart by 6 or 8, or 12 have a power exactly like those that stand upon the diameter. However, there is more power upon the zoidia which are like-engirdening and those that are equally ascending, since in this manner the actualizations come about tactfully (epidexiotes)..............The equally ascending zoidia which neighbor on one another will likewise exert a power exactly equal to what was said, even those ordered according to a certain co-like-engirding or configuration.

CH.13 - The remaining pairs of the like-engirdening zoidia, which are actually square to each other, have a regard (theoria) that is double the power of the like-engirdening zoidia ordered by aversion to each other. Sagittarius is to Pisces and and Gemini to Virgo exactly as those zoidia which are themselves ordered by tact and by superiority (kathuperteresis). As for those zoidia which are equally ascending but also figured, Leo will have more power in relation to Scorpio, and Aquarius in relation to Taurus. For, the zoidia which are neighbors in accordance with like-engirdening will have power exactly equal to those zoidia that have made a configuration."

Granted Mr.Schmidt is going to revisit this translation that he did at the beginning of the project and some of this translation will be updated. Although Paul wrote that images that are unconnected by figures are said to be averted from each other and become disharmonious (Ch.11), he turns this around in Ch.12 and 13 and indicates that like-engirdening and equi-ascending makes these images as if they were diametrically opposed for the ones 6, 8 and 12 images apart. I am sure it bothers Mr. Schmidt as much as it does me for Paul to use expression that the images have a power "exactly" like those of a diameter or that they have "double the power". There may be more digging into the issue of the "actualization coming about tactfully" since the word epidexiotes brings back in the idea of "on the right" and "on the left" again (I think).

One more comment before I try to get back to the testimony and its relationship to these "sympathetic" images. The diagram below shows the like-engirding relationships (images ruled by the same planet. I find it fascinating that the images ruled by the planets are in such a symmetrical pattern. How does this stuff work out this way? I am not really looking for an answer. I am just stunned when I try to image how this whole Hellenistic astrological system was ever created!

Like Engirding.JPG (97.18 KiB) Viewed 748 times

[David_Stricker]

Sympathetic Witnesses

I am borrowing Paul's description of how like-engirdening, equi-ascensional and commanding and obeying images interact as "sympathetic", just to save space. I am not sure if there is a conventional name for this group of relations, so for the moment I am going to use "sympathetic" to describe all three of them together. If there is a word that describes these kinds of relationships I would like to know! This word may change when Mr. Schmidt revises the translation, considering everything that has transpired since the first translation of Paul back in 1993.

In the new round of Intensives Mr Schmidt has been doing, he has suggested that these concepts may be a way of "intensifying " testimonial relationships in a similar manner to how the confines work as the neighboring concept for the figures and bodily conjunctions. I am not sure if he was offering this as conjecture or something he was very confident about, but the concept make a lot of sense to me. These "sympathetic" relationships deal with whole images and testimony requires figural perfection, which may take place over the span of several portions (degrees) in the planets' respective images. It would make sense that confines may not be a big enough range to catch the testimony of some of the faster moving planets or even a Zeus-Kronos testimonial perfection. And since testimony is not a figure per se, it would be appropriate that we would need to use something other than confines. There can be several testimonial relationships for a specific planet in a chart and it would help to have another way to focus on specific ones that might sharpen the focus of our delineations. It is always nice to have a "sympathetic" witness after all.

I am not going to list all of the image-pairs out, since most of you have access to these lists elsewhere. What I would like to mention briefly are the like-engirdening and equi-ascensional images that are unconnected by figure. There are 7 pairs that are unconnected (in aversion) and yet have this kind of "sympathy". I would like to suggest that this does not mitigate the impact of an aversion (lack of visual relationship) between the images, as Paul seemed to suggest when he said that they have the" power of a diameter". They are not in any kind of figure (aspect)and I would be concerned about describing the delineation as similar to a diameter (especially since the delineations for diameters vary!). Valens kept writing that they are really not as bad as some other writers would indicate ( I think that is because he had diametrical oppositions in his own chart, but I will save that for another day!). I was very concerned about Paul's implication that these relationships were a mitigation, in some way, of an aversion, especially when I was studying the chart examples in Vettius Valens (more below). Here are the 7 pairs that are unconnected by figure (aspect):

Equi-Ascensional

Ram - Fishes
Twins - Goat-Horned one
Crab - Archer
Virgin - The Balance

Like-Engirding

Ram - Scorpion
Bull - The Balance
Goat-Horned One - Water Pourer

Mr. Schmidt's suggestion that these special relationships are applicable for testimony relations would not include these seven, since there are no figures between them and therefore no testimony. I was happy to see that this might be why Valens still considered these images in aversion, when he was delineating domicile lords of various planets or lots or other factors in a chart. Paul's "sympathetic" relationships and his description of a power of the diameter was not something Valens seemed to be considering (at least not as far as aversion goes). For example, Book II, chapter 41 (Vol. 8 of the Greek Track of Project Hindsight), p.19, Valens wrote about Chart L87,VII (dated to about noon on July 9, 87 CE by Neugebauer in "Greek Horoscopes"):

"Similarly also, the lord of the Whole Moon is in aversion." (The Whole Moon or the prenatal lunation was in the Goat-Horned One and Kronos was in the Twins).

These two images are unconnected as far as traditional figures are concerned but are equi-ascensional and would be considered to be "sympathetic" to each other according to Paul. Bringing back Mr. Schmidt's idea of tying these conditions to testimonial relationships, this example in Valens would not seem to countradict this idea. There is no figure between these signs, so no testimony. Plus I am not sure, but I don't think testimony is used between planets and lots or between planets and pre-natal lunations (I am still reviewing my old notes from the '1990's about this). Valens does mentions aversion between lots and their domicile lords or as in the example above, the prenatal lunation and its domicile lord.

So back in the late 1990's, it was my contention that Valens did not recognize these sympathetic relationships mentioned in Paul, because of the example above (and others). But now since a finer distinction has been made between figural (aspects) and testimonial relationships, I am realizing that Valens might have recognized these relationships, but it was just not applicable in the examples he was providing. And I am thrilled to have a distinction in which I can use these image relationships and not dilute or distort the aversion (blindspot) issue, which I have found to be very insightful when studying people's charts. But I still need to find out how these "sympathetic" relationships may provide some kind of assistance to the native, even when there is no "sight" involved between the chart factors. Since sympathy can mean a shared feeling or affinity, maybe the native can gain some kind of "awareness" or "intuition" about the issues involved that is different than situations where the chart factors have some kind of visual relationships???

[Jane Griscti]

Hello Mr Stricker. I have been puzzling over this as well. Based on a comment Mr Schmidt made in the Planetary Configuration intensive and on the fact that one meaning of sympathetic is "acting or affected by, of the nature of, or pertaining to a special affinity or mutual relationship" I am hesitantly leaning towards the idea that these conditions relate to the planets acting at the same time but not necessarily acting harmoniously or at odds with one another.

For example, assume two planets in signs managed by Saturn, one in Capricorn, the other in Aquarius. If I understand correctly, both these planets would provide motivations for Saturn's actions when Saturn is active by profection, direction, etc. And as the planets are averse to each other neither one is aware of the others actions, they are blind to each other, and Saturn himself may or may not be aware of either planets goading. So I think it is a matter of the two planets acting simultaneously when Saturn is activated rather than it being a case of them acting in concert.

In the case of like-engirding they could possibly be seen as both acting to influence their 'mutual relationship', the image ruler; in the case of equal ascensions, they may both have a 'special affinity' to a specific topic. Not quite clear on this one, it makes more sense if the signs are neighbouring than if they are inconjunct, although possibly the planet 5 signs away has a special affinity because it has recently gone through the diametrical figure with the other planet and it's attitude has been adjusted or transposed in some fashion although one would think the source planet is blind to the change in it's relationship with the other.

There's also the idea of sympathy as it's used in physics "Physics. noting or pertaining to vibrations, sounds, etc., produced by a body as the direct result of similar vibrations in a different body.". The two planets become active at the same time as a result of the mutual image ruler being active or their signs becoming active at the same time. Although using this definition it is less clear as to how they might affect one another. Equal Ascensions are horizon based so perhaps the event emphasis is related to the topical place; while like-engirding would place the emphais on an event in the nature of the image ruler.

Not sure I've explained myself clearly, hope it makes some sense.

[David_Stricker]

Ms. Griscti,

You have explained yourself very clearly. I have some other thoughts but will need to wait until another time to post them. Thank you for your posts!