Miscellaneous Questions on Hellenistic Astrology

[Rumen_Kolev]

It just occured to me that actually for Valens, MC is in fact able to be the Life-Soure, the Ultimate Power (Predominator, Hyleg).
Here, in book 4, chapter 16 , (pages 174-176 Pingree) Valens obviously uses the word 'upostasis' as a synonime for 'epikratetor' = the Ultimate Power , Predominator, Hyleg


Again on the question what Valens means in his lines about the ACTIONS and that we must see from where comes the ENERGY of the native-
WE look for the MC and who has power there.

On the question, which MC we are looking at (but generally also true and meant also for all points able to be Hyleg, 'hypostasis')

the KEY phrase is page 176, lines 13-14:

Valens_04_16_page_176_Pingree.jpg (14 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

"......Verily, whether this (MC or another hypostasis) is laid out according to the NATIVITY or whether it (MC..) is laid out as according to the profection (annual), for all of them we would find the significance (the effects)...."

Here, without doubt, Valens says that we should see which of the planets rule the ACTIONS of the NATIVE by looking at the planets having power over the MC.
We do this in the natal chart and also in the profected - elaborates further Valens- and accordingly we judge what is the general propensity of the individual (Nativity) and the same in a given year.
Nice

[Joseph Ledzion]

Valens, on handings over, gives the example of his 35th year, in which taking away 24, leaves 11. From this he finds the horoskopos in the Virgin handing over to a star in the Crab, from the Scorpion to the Virgin, and from the Goat-Horned One to the Scorpion. My question: In the 36th year, is not the counting reset to zero? Is there no handing over to the twelfth?

Joseph

[David_Stricker]

Regarding Joseph's question:

My question: In the 36th year, is not the counting reset to zero? Is there no handing over to the twelfth?

The 36th year is a handing over by 12. The 37th year is the return to the natal positions (I suppose you could call this a handing over by 1). Valens makes an interesting point about handings over to the natal positions. In Book V, chapter 6, page 26 of the Project Hindsight translation, Valens makes reference to a chart on page 24 (L120, II - Feb 8, 120CE about 7PM). He is discussing other ways of investigating profections when the handings over fall on a image with no planets in it. He says that there are time periods when exceptional things come about even though there are no profections. Or when it appears that the benefics are doing the only handing over but negative things happen. He shows how to look at subdivisions of the handing over number, if no profections are found doing the normal process.

He also says:

"The 13 and the 25 and the 37 leave off at the same zoidion. If then a star should be found to be lying upon it, it will hand over to the zoidion. But if, when this [star] is lying upon it, other stars change to be in the next zoidion, it will rather hand over to them."

"If then a handing over of the 12 [zoidia] should not be found in order that [a handing over] must necessarily come about from these- and it also seems good to subjoin this account as well, as being very natural--."

Valens shows in the example that at the profection to the natal positions, if there are no other planets in the natal image, but there is a planet in the following image, the planet will hand over to that one. So in a sense, you will have the handing over to the next image for two years.

In his example, Ares is in the Virgin, Zeus in the Balance and Selene is in the Scorpio. Aphrodite is in the Goat-Horned One and Helios and Hermes are in the Water Pourer. Valens indicates that in the year when the profections return to their natal positions, Ares will hand over to Zeus and Zeus will hand over to Selene. In the following year, say the 14th, 26th or 38th, the same planets will hand to the same planets. So in the 37th and 38th year, for this person, Ares will hand over to Zeus and Zeus will hand over to Selene.

Dave

[Martien Hermes]

Mr. Stricker

I got the impression - also from your earlier work - that you are quite well informed on the topic of profections.
There is one topic that keeps eluding me. In book 5 chapter 6 VAlens suggests sort of a number play on in his first example:

"For an illustration, let the Sun, Hermes be in Aquarius; the Moon in Scorpio; Kronos in Cancer; Zeus in Libra; Ares in Virgo; Aphrodite in Capricorn; Hôroskopos in Virgo. Now, there will be two [zōidia] from Ares and the Hõroskopos to Zeus, and two from Zeus to the Moon, and two from Aphrodite to Hermes and the Sun; the two, then, and the 4 and the 6 and the 8 and ten are in relation to these. Next, there are 3 from Ares to the Moon, and 3 from Kronos to Ares, and 3 from the Moon to Aphrodite; the 3, then, and 6, 9, 12 and 15 are in relation to these. Next, we extend 4 from Kronos to Zeus, and from Zeus to Aphrodite, and 4 from the Moon to the Sun at Hermes; the 4, then, and 8, 12 and 16 are in relation to these. Next, there are 5 from Ares and the Hõroskopos to Aphrodite, and from Zeus to the Sun and Hermes, and 5 from Kronos to the Moon; therefore, the 5, the 10, the 15 and the 20 are relation to these. Again, there are 6 from Ares and the Hõroskopos to the Sun and Hermes, and 6 from the Sun and Hermes to Kronos; therefore, the 6, the 12, the 18, the 24 and the 30 are relation to these. Next, there are 7 from Kronos to Aphrodite; the 7, then, the 14, the 21, the 28 and the 35 are in relation to these; similarly also, there are 7 from Aphrodite to Kronos. Next, there are 8 from the Kronos to the Sun and Hermes, and 8 from Hermes and the Sun to Ares and the Hōroskopos; the 8, then, the 16, the 24, the 32 and the 40 are in relation to these. Next, there are 9 from the Sun and Hermes to Zeus, and 9 from Aphrodite to Ares and the Hōroskopos, and 9 from the Moon to Kronos; the 9, then, and 18, 27, 36 and 45 are in relation to these. Next, there are 10 from the Sun and Hermes to the Moo and 10 from Aphrodite to Zeus, and 10 from Zeus to Kronos; the 10, then, and 20, 30, 40, and 50 are in relation to these. Next, there are 11 from Aphrodite to the Moon, and 11 from the Moon to Ares and the Hōroskopos, and 11 from the Hōroskopos and Ares to Kronos; the 11, then, and 22, 33, 44 and 55 are in relation to these. Next, there are 12 from the Sun and Hermes to Aphrodite and 12 from the Moon to Zeus, and 12 from Zeus to Ares and the Hõroskopos; the 12, then, and 24 and 36 and 48 and 60 are in relation to these. And as far as one desires, he may find the number by further addition."

This eludes me. Can you explain what he's doing and how this is used in profection?

Thanks!

[David_Stricker]

Martien,

The quote that you are referring to is from the same section as the one that I mentioned in my previous post. Valens is providing variations of the Profections method to use when the handings over from the planets fall on empty images. Valens indicates that it was his experience that often when the Profections came to a empty image, the year was still eventful with relation to the topics represented by the planet handing over. So he provides variations of the main Profections technique, that include the one that I mention in my last post and the one that you have quoted.

I have not used this technique extensively, so I have don't have a lot of direct experience with the kind of results that may come about. What I believe Valens is trying to show us, is that there are secondary ways of exploring profections. In this method, the years of the native's life can be related by taking multiples of the numbers. So for example take the number 7. This represents planets in opposition. Now he writes that 7 "is in relation to 14, 21, 28 and 35". It seems to be a kind of harmonic relationship.

So if the native have planets in opposition, Valens seems to be telling us that not only will they be active in the 7th, 19th, 31st, 43nd years (in which you subtract 12's) but also in the years that are multiples of 7. It is my impression that these are secondary techniques and are used for making finer distinctions or to be used when the planets involved in the handings over are not reaching an image with planets in the year of the native's life. I have not worked with this much, as I have indicated, but you can get a feeling from just the example of the 7's that if this method was used all the time, profections would be occurring quite frequently - in this case 7th, 14th, 19th, 21st, 28th, 31st, 35th, 42nd, 43rd, etc.

This is not the only variation of the Profections method that Valens offers. He explores other ways of using profections when the primary technique does not result in any handing over/taking over. This time lord method is one that Valens was very partial to. He even explains how he learned of this method and he says that everything in the native's life can be understood using this method- apparently if you use all the variations and nuances that Valens presents. It seems that our Hellenistic writers are in some way no different than modern astrologers. I have noticed that many modern astrologers I have met tend to be drawn to or are most successful using certain methods or approaches and the older writers appear to be no different. The Dorotheus translation that we have reports that everything can be found in the chart by studying the trigon lords. Firmicus Maternus (I think) reports that Ptolemy was able to find everything using the anticisia. And the Babylonians supposedly found everything using the 12th parts ( or so it was reported).

This seems to indicate a of couple of possibilities to me. We are incredibly fortunate to have all of these powerful methods preserved and who knows how well we can do astrology if we use all of them. Or it may be possible that if any one time lord method or procedure is studied in great detail and with diligence, it is possible that any one of several of the methods, by themselves, can show us what is going on in a native's life.

Dave

[Doug_Noblehorse]

I have noticed that many modern astrologers I have met tend to be drawn to or are most successful using certain methods or approaches and the older writers appear to be no different. The Dorotheus translation that we have reports that everything can be found in the chart by studying the trigon lords. Firmicus Maternus (I think) reports that Ptolemy was able to find everything using the anticisia. And the Babylonians supposedly found everything using the 12th parts ( or so it was reported).

This seems to indicate a of couple of possibilities to me. We are incredibly fortunate to have all of these powerful methods preserved and who knows how well we can do astrology if we use all of them. Or it may be possible that if any one time lord method or procedure is studied in great detail and with diligence, it is possible that any one of several of the methods, by themselves, can show us what is going on in a native's life.

Dave

I've noticed the same thing, especially reading Dorotheus and Firmicus.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. There's nothing new under the Sun. And a host of other cliches I can't think of at the moment...

Mr. Noblehorse

[Joseph Ledzion]

~*~

The Sun, Ares and Hermes in the Scorpion, the Moon in the Ram, Kronos and the Lot in the Water Pourer; Zeus and Aphrodite in the Balance. The Lion Rises (in territory of Zeus). The exaltation is also in the Lion. The Divinity is in the Goat-Horned One (... in this instance, Schmidt's orginal translation "Divinity" could possibly be appropriate instead of "Spirit", since the nativity is high ranking).

The Moon is in the same portion as the Midheaven, in the ninth place (god). The Sun is found in the fourth place. Who is the Life-Giver, the Moon or the Sun ? Why ?

Valens said that a planet in its depression cannnot ordinarily be the Life Giver unless it were found in the same portion as the Ascendant. That isn't the issue here; I am confused about the moon being turned aside, yet goaded. Please shed some light on the contradiction between whole sign houses and the MC.

To complicate matters worse in is the fact that Mars, bound ruler for both luminaries, is falling amiss for the Moon yet is in its own domicile with the Sun. This would seem to indicate that the Sun is a better choice for Life Giver, on account of the support. But again, the Moon being on a first angle "pops out" more in the immediacy, and even more so being the degree of the Midheaven.