Research Studies: Tropical vs. Sidereal & Related

[Therese_Hamilton]

[IS ANYTHING FROM HUGO WINCKLER OR ALFRED JEREMIAS available in English? These are the classic.]

There are a few selections on Amazon. com. Just type in the author's name on Amazon search.

My understanding is that there is meaning in the 'coincidences'.

I believe the stars and constellations are a purposeful plan for our entertainment and study. Otherwise how could such fantastic sky pictures have meaning and actually "work" astrologically.?

That the heart of the Scorpio is exact opposite the eye of the Bull and that the southern horn of the Bull is exact opposite the sting of the Scorpio, I see as such 'coincidences' with immense meaning. One shows the Golden Epoch. The other the Dark Ages.

This could perhaps be correlated with India's Yuga system of ages. In that system the junction between Virgo and Libra marks the lowest evolutionary point, Aries-Pisces the highest. We are currently in the ascending Virgo period. We could date the period that correlates with Antares.

[Therese_Hamilton]

The zodiac with Spica in 00 Libra will cut also the sting of the Scorpio!
The sting of Scorpio (Shaula) will move to around 1:00 Sagg.

Rumen, I know you are familiar with star maps as aligned with the zodiac. If you place Shaula in Scorpio, then the scorpion's tail is fractured---Shaula and Lesath in Scorpio and the rest of the tail in Sagittarius. It does not make sense (to me) to divide the scorpion's tail and place it in two signs, cut by the junction of the signs. This is probably one reason that India places the entire tail in Sagittarius in the Mula mansion. (Spica at 30 degrees.)

There are many ins and outs in a discussion of sign boundaries and the stars. There is no "one size fits all." For example, Markab at the junction of Aquarius and Pisces is 23 minutes from Pisces at the end of Aquarius (with Spica at 30 Virgo). Yet Pegasus was considered to belong to the sign of Pisces. Markab would be one degree further back in Aquarius with the Fagan ayanamsa.

It seems to me that we have only two of the brightest stars close to the ecliptic as possible zodiac fiducials: Spica and Regulus. Both Aldebaran and Antares have greater latitude.

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Greetings dear Ms Hamilton,

It seems to me that we have only two of the brightest stars close to the ecliptic as possible zodiac fiducials: Spica and Regulus. Both Aldebaran and Antares have greater latitude.

Relatively small ecliptic latitude, yes, but this is only one of several criteria. You have also mentioned brightness. Another important criterion is relatively slight proper motion, where Antares by far wins the laurel wreath compared to others you have mentioned.

Astronomy, the other side of the same coin as astrology, has findings that should in my humble opinion interest astrologers as much as ancient documents. Here is an example with further links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrometry

Rather than behave like a one-faced Janus, astrologers' vocation is to investigate and explain what newly discovered astronomic phenomena symbolically mean.

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Rumen_Kolev]

Does anyone seriously believe that discovery and study of still more ancient tablets, manuscripts etc. will lead to the establishment of The One True Universal Precession Factor? In spite of nutation and proper motion of stars?

Does anyone believe that study of antiquity is un-necessary?
Was this Mahno or Mao?

Abdullah, Servant of God!
I do not quite understand what is the place of The Precession Factor (speed of precession) in the discussion of the Babylonian Zodiac.
Neither the Proper Motion and how it could 'affect' the Ancient Astrology.

Several arc-minutes are not even discernable by the eye.
The fact that the distance from the horn of the Bull to its Eye is not exactly 15 degrees will not make void the whole energy charge in this area of the sky.
And the orbits of the planets too will not change...
And there is much more than the cosmic energy.

The Main Principle of Mesopotamian Astrology is Observation, Experience of the Sky, looking for celestial signs and at the same time watching the Earth too and the events on the Earth.
We should forget about schemas and enjoy the sky.

*************************
Therese, yes, small part of the tail of Scorpio is in Sagg.
But hey! As Abdullah said: there is nothing perfect!

[Therese_Hamilton]

We should forget about schemas and enjoy the sky.

Yes, the mystique of the sky, stars and constellations will always capture the hearts of true astrologers! Astrology is, after all, a cosmic science, not belonging to the earth alone. This is why we can't master astrology at our current stage of develpment. At the most we are humble students.

Therese, yes, small part of the tail of Scorpio is in Sagg.

Not a small part of the tail! The entire curve of the tail is in Sagittarius, and the very end stars (near the beginning of Sag) are Laseth and Shaula. The stars of the Scropion's tail go all the way to five degrees of Sagittarius, and there may be smaller stars after that.This is why I say that as far as symbolism goes, I don't like to see the tip of the tail cut off into another sign.

However, considering that the constellations are of varying lengths and many go into adjoining signs, this particular argument doesn't seem very sound ---keeping certain stars within the sign of the constellation belonging to the stars. A whole huge section of Pisces is in Aries including the major star of the knot and the eastern fish. No, the signs are something entirely different, and I would agree with you that the measurements of signs have to be exact.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Astronomy, the other side of the same coin as astrology, has findings that should in my humble opinion interest astrologers as much as ancient documents. Here is an example with further links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrometry

This is an interesting article, but you keep going off on tangents that are not central to the discussion. You don't sound like a practicing astrologer, but only a person interested in theoretical structure.

Of course astrologers should be familiar with the astronomy behind the physical aspects of astrology. But science at its current stage cannot touch the mystical underpinnings of astrology, and this is where the symbolism of stars and constellations play an important role.

[Therese_Hamilton]

Rumen, have you seen the book Babylonian Star-Lore (2008) by Gavin white, and if so, do you have an opinion of the book? It's a beautifully illustrated book done with love and care, but it doesn't have the usual professional notations. The author worked outside of the usual academic circles.

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Greetings,

Although not my personal situation, one of history's greatest astrological authors, Ptolemy, is not known to have actually practised astrology. His famous 'Four Books' on astrology do not contain chart examples.

How can one continue a discussion about precession factors one degree apart when one has confirmed that the underlying data is subject to a standard deviation of three degrees? Might such a continuation be termed 'tangential'?

Pandora's box has been open for quite some time. Although very helpful in understanding ancient Babylonian astrology, restricting oneself to physical observation of the heavens with the naked eye (astrolabe allowed?), might not be the future of astrological knowledge. Delving into the past implies delving into the future, both being qualities of the eternal present. The astrological sages of yore are scarcely known for having ignored current astronomic findings of their days. On the contrary, they were mostly at the forefront of astronomic research, e. g. Abū al-Rayḥān Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Bīrūnī.

Can anyone submit data that, using e. g. Swiss or more accurate ephemerides, at any time in history the fixed fiducial stars Aldebaran, Regulus, Spica, Antares and Fomalhaut ever exhibited the exact ecliptical distances from each other implied by their 'ancient Babylonian' positions, e. g. Aldebaran 15 Bull, Regulus 5 Lion, Spica 29 Maiden, etc.?

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers

[Rumen_Kolev]

Abdullah, I still do not understand what do you mean by 'precessional factor' !
Surely, theory has its place as practice does also. Experimentum decides which theory is the true one. Revelation is Theory seen in vision that is confirmed by all Practice.

I have the book by Gavin White.
It is a good free write.
He has compiled a lot of info from the secondary literature. He gives no references though. Impossible for the non-professional to check him.
However, we should talk concrete.
On page 61 Gavin says that 'the Bow star to kill and rob' is a line from the Creation Epic.
But where?
There is one line, V 25, that talks about kill and rob, but there is no Bow star there.
Here Gavin must be wrong.
Then down in the page he quotes an omen about the Bow star in the halo of the Moon bringing rage and robberies.
This is taken from Hunger 'Astrological Reports...' 1992 and is correct.

[Rumen_Kolev]

Can anyone submit data that, using e. g. Swiss or more accurate ephemerides, at any time in history the fixed fiducial stars Aldebaran, Regulus, Spica, Antares and Fomalhaut ever exhibited the exact ecliptical distances from each other implied by their 'ancient Babylonian' positions, e. g. Aldebaran 15 Bull, Regulus 5 Lion, Spica 29 Maiden, etc.?

Abdullah you can do it yourself with the program you have. The mean inexactness must be around several arc-minutes off.