Research Studies: Tropical vs. Sidereal & Related

[Rumen_Kolev]

Therese,

If you move Aldebaran from its 15th degree to its 16th, i.e. move the beginning 1 degree back in the zodiac (as KrishnaMurti wants), then
you will cut the southern horn of the celestial Bull.
30 pounds of lapis lazuli !
Last time it was Gilgamesh and Enkidu who did it!

[Therese_Hamilton]

Sensational discovery has just been published!!

The 'egyptian terms' turn out in a cuneiform tablet from 500 BC!
Look here:
http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/1/

This is an exciting discovery, that the origin of the terms appears to be in Mesopotamia. This would mean that the terms originally were definitely sidereal. But the differences from the "Eqyptian" terms can only be frustrating for astrologers who will have no way of knowing which system is more accurate. And the terms are very difficult to research anyway.

How much of the old knowledge still lies hidden away in museums? Or perhaps buried under desert sands.

[Rumen_Kolev]

Yes, there are several slight differences between the 'egyptian' bounds as known to the Hellines and those from the tablet.
This is natural.
I bet the museums are full to the brim with such type of tablets.
No-one though studies them.
The older astro tablets fell in disregard 100 years ago and still lay around untouched. (because of the pan-Babylonian argument)
This is soon to change!

VAN DER WAERDEN AND CYRIL FAGAN
Waerden in his article on the Zodiac quotes Cyril Fagan! (details given in previous post: page 229, AOF 1952-53, v. 16).
This is a sure sign of what kind of scholar he was. A true one.

(Not like that hypocritical and miserable 'scholar' Roger Beck [on the payroll of the Canadian tax-payer] who wrote a whole book on Ancient Astrology without even mentioning the name of that one who first translated hundreds of pages of Hellenistic astrologers- Robert Schmidt).
{ look at: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=254 }

Therese, I hope you understood what I meant by 'cutting the horn of the Bull'.
The star on the tip of Bull's southern horn will move to around 1:00 degree of Gemini, should we set Aldebaran in 16 deg. Tauri (Spica in 00 Libra).

The zodiac with Spica in 00 Libra will cut also the sting of the Scorpio!
The sting of Scorpio (Shaula) will move to around 1:00 Sagg.

In the ancient Mesopotamian zodiac, Aldebaran = 15 Tauri, both stars: the southern horn of the Bull and the sting of the Scorpio, show the boundaries between the images since these stars are exactly there.

The celestial Bull is nothing but the body of light of a divinity (an aspect or name of God).

****************************
Abdullah,
Of course, there was ONE TRUE ANCIENT REVEALED ORIGINAL ASTROLOGY!
ONE and only ONE.
This was What God revealed to Lord Enmeduranki (Enoch)!
And this was long time ago. Before the flood. Around 5-6,000 BC.

The same is true also for the revelations (illuminations) of Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, Jesus ...

What followed after them is another story.

[Therese_Hamilton]

If you move Aldebaran from its 15th degree to its 16th, i.e. move the beginning 1 degree back in the zodiac (as KrishnaMurti wants), then you will cut the southern horn of the celestial Bull.
30 pounds of lapis lazuli !

I have been off-line due to the Christmas holidays.

I can certainly see the Babylonian logic of keeping Spica in Virgo. There's no way the Babylonian astronomers/astrologers could place Spica in another sign, as van der Waerdon points out:

"A small shift backward---and Spica would not fall within the sign Virgo, which would seem absurb to any Babylonian astronomer." (History of the Zodiac, p. 222, which some nice person has placed on the internet.)

But it would seem that van der Waerden has the most likely summary when he writes in discussing the vernal point of -100:

"...and Spica near 29 Virgo, with a possible deviation of 1 degree to either side." (p. 222, note)

I rather like to think that the Beings (divine or otherwise) who laid out the zodiac meant Spica to be the great marker of the fixed zodiac, perhaps channeling the energy of Arcturus to the north. Edgar Cayce speaks of Arcturus as of great importance as the way out of this system.

[Therese_Hamilton]

But it would seem that van der Waerden has the most likely summary when he writes in discussing the vernal point of -100:

"...and Spica near 29 Virgo, with a possible deviation of 1 degree to either side." (p. 222, note)

I rather like to think that the Beings (divine or otherwise) who laid out the zodiac meant Spica to be the great marker of the fixed zodiac, perhaps channeling the energy of Arcturus to the north. Edgar Cayce speaks of Arcturus as of great importance as the way out of this system.

So it would seem that Spica must fall between 28 and 30 degrees of Virgo in the Babylonian zodiac. But I see no support for Aldebaran/Antares being at exactly 15 degrees of Taurus/Scorpio. I mean that this is not mentioned in zodiac discussions by today's scholars in the published books.

[Therese_Hamilton]

by Rumen_Kolev on Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:59 am

The older astro tablets fell in disregard 100 years ago and still lay around untouched. (because of the pan-Babylonian argument) This is soon to change!

How is this going to change? There must be very few scholars who can read and interpret the ancient tablets.

van der Waerden in his article on the Zodiac quotes Cyril Fagan!...This is a sure sign of what kind of scholar he was. A true one.

Yes, I saw that. Impressive!!

Therese, I hope you understood what I meant by 'cutting the horn of the Bull'.
The star on the tip of Bull's southern horn will move to around 1:00 degree of Gemini, should we set Aldebaran in 16 deg. Tauri (Spica in 00 Libra).

The zodiac with Spica in 00 Libra will cut also the sting of the Scorpio!
The sting of Scorpio (Shaula) will move to around 1:00 Sagg.

In the ancient Mesopotamian zodiac, Aldebaran = 15 Tauri, both stars: the southern horn of the Bull and the sting of the Scorpio, show the boundaries between the images since these stars are exactly there.

Yes!! And I have done a lot of work with the boundary stars of the sidereal signs. Yes, I know exactly where these stars are, and many others. We are not in ancient Babylon, so let's suppose that bright stars are really meant to visually mark the boundaries of signs (and lunar mansions that India aligned with the zodiac at a later date). Stars at the junction points between zodiac signs wouldn't necessarily have to remain in the sign that has the name of the constellation if they visually marked a sign junction.

Actually, if you want to be specific to the minute, the exact position of Al Hecka (zeta Tauri) is 1 degree 1 minute in the Krishnamurti zodiac. So with the Fagan ayanamsa it would be at 2 minutes of Gemini. But this highlights the possibility that stars may be meant to visually mark the boundaries of sidereal signs and lunar mansions.

I should mention that with the Lahiri ayanamsa which places Spica at 30 Virgo, Aldebaran and Antares will be just under 16 degrees, so will remain at 15 degrees of their signs. (Although technically speaking a degree is completed at 60 minutes of the previous degree. As the second degree begins at precisely one degree, zero minutes of a sign.) This creates problems with the degree symbolism books.

Some years ago I made a diagram of the 12 signs and 27 Indian mansions and marked the closest bright stars to the boundaries of signs and mansions and centers of the mansions. I used the Krishnamurti zodiac, but for research purposes adjustments can be made based on careful research. (I will try to scan the entire zodiac diagram and put it on my web site.)

In the meantime, here are a few of the Krishnamurti star longitudes. The great majority of the longitudes will move further away from sign and mansion cusps and centers with the Fagan ayanamsa. (I know that the Babylonians apparently wanted to keep the primary stars in the signs of the name of their constellations, but this may not be the best zodiac to use today...but that is an area for much research.)

Krishnamurti Sign Boundaries and 27 Lunar Mansion Boundaries and Centers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 deg 39 min, Miarach, beta Andromeda (center of Ashvini in Aries, 6 deg 40 min)

13 deg 54 min, Hamal, alpha Aries (boundary of Ashvini-Bharani in Aries at 13 deg 20 min)

16 deg 02 min, Aldebaran, alpha Taurus (center of Rohini in Taurus 16 deg 40 min)

23 deg 04 min, Rigel, beta Orion (boundary of Rohini-Mrig in Taurus at 23 deg 20 min)

29 deg 27 min, Pollux, beta Gemini (boundary of Gemini-Cancer)

6 deg 04 min, Regulus, alpha Leo (center of Magha in Leo at 6 deg 40 min)

0 deg 5 min, Spica, alpha Virgo (boundary of Virgo-Libra)

16 deg 0 min, Antares, alpha Scorpio (boundary of Anuradha-Jyteshta in Scorpio at 16 deg 40 min)

0 deg 15 min, Laseth, upsilon Scorpio (boundary of Scorpio-Sagittarius)
(Two other stars of the Scorpion's sting fall in Sagittarius, and identify the Mula mansion.)

29 deg 47, min, Deneb Algedi, delta Capricorn (boundary of Capricorn-Aquarius)

29 deg 43 min, Markab, alpha Pegasus (boundary of Aquarius-Pisces)

So we really have a choice: What is more important? That as many junction stars as possible remain in the signs with their constellational names, or to be able to visually find sign boundaries and lunar mansion boundaries and centers using bright stars? That is, fit as many stars as possible within less than 45 minutes of junction/center positions?

We know from Babylonian star catalogues that the stars were not precisely aligned to the exact minute, and often not to the exact degree in relation to other stars. Had exact measurements been lost by the eras in which we have recorded star catalogues? It's possible that the records we have may have deteriorated from earlier centuries. Or it's possible that Babylonian measurement was never precise to the minute or even to the degree as recorded in the star catalogues that have come down to us.

Therese Hamilton

[Rumen_Kolev]

Therese,

Yes. Waerden is very clear in his writing style. Waerden and Weidner are the best authors scholars who wrote on Babylonian Astro- in my opinion.
[IS ANYTHING FROM HUGO WINCKLER OR ALFRED JEREMIAS available in English? These are the classic.]
It will be good for the readers if you can give the link to the article about the Zodiac by van der Waerden that you say is in the net.
Yes, indeed the southern horn of the Bull is at 00:02 Gemini. (with the Aldebaran = 15 Tauri)
We should know also the capability, acuity of the human eye.
The average is around 5 arc-minutes.
Extremely sharp eyes see 1 arc-minute.
Not so good eyes and majority of people after 60 years have acuity of around 5 to 10 arc-minutes.
Ptolemy's instruments had notches every 10 arc-minutes.

My understanding is that there is meaning in the 'coincidences'.
Those who want to shape our beliefs can figure out very good theories. In some periods of time they can even control the whole mental realm of society (as during Hitler or Stalin). To control and enslave the mental world is the first step for such forces. They of course do not limit themselves only to the civilized and ethical academic discussion... They suppress science and Any means for them are OK. They burnt Giordano Bruno. They crucified Jesus. They killed Halaj. These forces are always 'in action' and as brutal as the general society will let them be...
Mesopotamia is central for them. It is the Door to the Magical World of the Golden Age.

What they cannot control, though, are the 'coincidences', the so called 'chance'.
Like that one for the angular diameter of the Sun and the Moon, which is virtually the same.
There are many more such [including history]. Like several presidents (of the USA) and signers of the Declaration , dying on 4th of July.
That the heart of the Scorpio is exact opposite the eye of the Bull and that the southern horn of the Bull is exact opposite the sting of the Scorpio, I see as such 'coincidences' with immense meaning.
One shows the Golden Epoch. The other the Dark Ages.

[Rumen_Kolev]

by Rumen_Kolev on Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:59 am

The older astro tablets fell in disregard 100 years ago and still lay around untouched. (because of the pan-Babylonian argument) This is soon to change!



How is this going to change? There must be very few scholars who can read and interpret the ancient tablets.

These few scholars (and all students in this field) until now have shunned the old and controversial tablets.
Any tablet, any info that would shake the dogma of Kugler-Neugebauer was 'out of vogue'.
No-one would finance such studies. No-one would have published such research!

I suspect that there are many more tablets like these (containing the 'Egyptian terms' studied by Steele and Jones): unpublished, maybe even out of the catalogues. Or even lying around unnoticed or ignored...

It is not question of number of scholars in Assyriology, but rather What is the kind of Research that is sponsored and supported by the universities.
Is it the Dogmatic Kuglerian approach (combined with effective suppression of science:
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/inde ... &Itemid=41 )
or is it the Independent Free Research?
I see what is coming and I wrote about it on this forum, on this Site years ago!
A new era in the research of Mesopotamia!
Get ready for more amazing discoveries!

[Petr_Radek]

Article B.L.van der Waerden is here:

http://ebookbrowse.com/cern-arch-pmc-06 ... -d87391771

[Abd-Allah Meyers]

Greetings,

Does anyone seriously believe that discovery and study of still more ancient tablets, manuscripts etc. will lead to the establishment of The One True Universal Precession Factor? In spite of nutation and proper motion of stars?

Attempts to somehow press and align the positions of rather bright stars into some regularly numbered, equally divided schemes remind us of the clamourous attachment of the human mind to names, forms and numbers and of its extreme reluctance to acknowledge the underlying primacy of Primordial, Primaeval Chaos.

Some schools of astrology use unequal signs based on the observable constellations, thus circumventing the problems elucidated in this thread, substituting them with aggravating questions about the correct delimitations of the Constellations and which amongst them comprise the ecliptic.

May one be reminded of, by today's standards, often woefully inaccurate planetary and point positions in any regular zodiac that formed the basis of much astrological writing in antiquity? Three degrees were, as we can read above in this thread, a standard deviation, for example implying three years in primary directions. Such petty issues of course did not deter the learned, wise astrological authors of yore from considerable expenditures for tablets or for parchments and ink to record their profound speculations.

Best regards,

Abd-Allah Meyers